People love to squabble about the specifics. Whether or not people should have applied early for citizenship/visas, democratic mechanisms, about who is to blame, who deserves what and such, if we should focus on other groups of immigrants &co. I think most people here in the comments are overlooking the deeply disgusting and hurtful nature of nationalism. How about we say that is not in our interest? No matter if it’s nationalism in the case of Brexit or Swedes cracking down on immigration.
In an ideal world, there are no states and no borders.
But in the world we live in, this is sadly not the case and we must stick to the rules that the people have agreed to. The rules in this case are, the people of Britain have voted to leave the EU and all its benefits, so these new rules must be followed.
I didn’t vote to leave
Sure. It is not your fault. Could you have done more to convince other people to do the same? Maybe, I don’t know you.
My point is, that is how a democracy works. Don’t like it? Do something about it.
Could you have done more to convince other people to do the same? Maybe, I don’t know you.
That is mean to imply they haven’t. You are treating democracy as an end in it itself while ignoring the fact that systemically speaking large decisions, even when backed with a democratic vote, have strongly tended to side with capital. Brexit for example is a pretty good example of competition between the UK and Germany.
But in the world we live in, this is sadly not the case and we must stick to the rules that the people have agreed to.
Who says we must? F the rules, it’s not like it’s in the interest of those who actually make the world go round. Immigrants for example.
The rules in this case are, the people of Britain have voted to leave the EU and all its benefits, so these new rules must be followed.
There was a poll about the death penalty some time ago in an EU country. The majority of those polled were in favour of the death penalty. Does the death penalty prevent murders? No it doesn’t. It’s just another terrorist tool that the populace OKs to have used upon itself in certain cases.
Your logic is exactly the same of following orders and denouncing undesirables. It is no better than what UKIP and Sweden Democrats base their decision making on, in fact it boils down to the same thing. It’s nationalism.
“In the first version of the study, the “learner” could be heard banging on the wall at 300 volts and 315 volts and then falling silent. The experiments unexpectedly found that a very high proportion of subjects would obey the instructions, with every participant going up to 300 volts, and 65% going up to the full 450 volts” -The Milgram Experiment
‘Following orders’ is a part of humanity. If your plans require its absence they will fail.
'Following orders’ is a part of humanity
Human nature argument that can be safely ignored.
I’m curious on your opinion of the execution of Ronald Clark O’Bryan in 1984.
There’s this myth that strangers are going to taint Halloween candy with poison or razor blades or drugs, so you have to check the packaging to make sure it’s factory sealed or better yet only go to our Trunk Or Treat event open only to members of Our Church. Our Church: “Fear and hate everyone who isn’t a member!TM”
Yeah let me tell you something about Our Church: The United States is the third largest nation by landmass and population and 250 years old, and out of all those people in all that space in all that time, the number of children harmed by tainted Halloween candy is ONE: Timothy O’Bryan, 1974, age 8. The son of Ronald Clark O’Bryan, a deacon of the Second Baptist Church.
Approaching Halloween of 1974, Ronald Clark O’Bryan opened several Pixy Stix (if you’re not familiar, these are straw-like tubes full of a sweet and tart powder. Small ones are crimped paper tubes, larger ones are plastic tubes heat crimped at one end and folded over and stapled at the other), poured out the candy, mixed it with potassium cyanide, poured the poisoned mixture back in the tubes and re-stapled them. His intended victim: His own son, Timothy. His motive: Life insurance fraud.
He handed out several of the tubes, to his own daughter and several other neighborhood children. After trick or treating, his son asked to eat some of his candy, and Ronald urged him to eat the Pixy Stix. He needed help with the staple, and then complained of the bitter taste. Ronald offered him Kool-Aid to help with the taste. His son complained of stomach pain and ran to the bathroom where he began convulsing and vomiting, before dying in Ronald’s arms.
He raised the alarm, “My child just ate a Pixy Stix and died! Check your child’s Halloween candy for Pixy Stix!” All of the other tainted tubes were recovered, one directly from the hands of a boy who had tried to eat the candy, couldn’t open the staple and fell asleep still holding it.
It was found after a short investigation that Ronald O’Bryan had visited a local chemical store to purchase potassium cyanide shortly before Halloween.
Ronald Clark O’Bryan was executed via lethal injection in 1984.
This is just pure moralism that doesn’t engage with my argument. If you want my opinion though, I don’t think he should have been executed.
O’Bryan knew about capital punishment in his state’s legislation and probably took it into account like almost all murderers do. It did not prevent him from killing his son. You are making my case that the death penalty does not prevent murder. There are statistics from all over the world to back this up. Homicide rates are not at all well correlated with the severity of punishment. They are much better correlated with education and poverty rates.
What you are doing is this: You are taking one rather ugly case and using it to justify the status quo or populist sentiment. What if I talked about the five times a trans person attacked a woman? Does that justify how trans people are treated, how they are looked upon with doubt and disgust in this day and age? No. There are cases where whole families are doing well organised welfare fraud. Does that justify the rabidness with which states treat people in need – like significantly lowering payouts when a family member starts menial work? No. Do these couple of cases of welfare fraud deserve the attention they’re getting? I don’t think so.
How many of these are people that did not send in an application in time for the deadline and how many actually got rejected after sending in the application on time?
Anyone that has stayed abroad knows that you do not fuck around with the deadlines.
To be fair, the Swedish government fucked around and didn’t work out what the application process would be until months after everyone else in Europe, and finally passed the law in late 2020, when most people had more important things to worry about (i.e. Covid.)
In any event, the Withdrawal Agreement says “anyone who was resident before Brexit automatically retains all^* the rights they had”, and in principle if anyone ever questions those rights all you need to do is prove you were resident before the deadline. Many countries just left it at that - no registration process at all - but some countries (including the one I live in, thankfully not Sweden) did introduce registration processes as well because having a piece of paper or card saying “we recognise they were here before” just makes that “prove it” easier. But it is NOT required by the WA.
But that does not change the fact that if Sweden is deporting people who can prove they are beneficiaries of the withdrawal agreement (i.e. were resident before Brexit), just because they didn’t do some paperwork, then Sweden is not honouring the agreement.
Which is a dick move, whatever you think of Brexit.
It’s also worth noting that the vast majority of beneficiaries of the agreement are not British - it’s the EU citizens who are permitted to live in the UK permanently on exactly the same basis. I’ll wager dollars to donuts there are a lot more Swedes resident in the UK than vice-versa, and guarantee a lot more EU citizens generally in the UK than vice-versa, and all Sweden is doing is giving a future UK government all the reason it needs to start breaking the agreement itself and start deporting. Just so a far-right government in Sweden can be seen to be tough on immigrants. Dick, dick move.
^*: Not quite ‘all’ - exceptions for rights that couldn’t be retained for constitutional reasons; for example I lost the right to buy land or bote because changing that would have required a constitutional amemdment/referendum, which is obviously impractical.
Read a bit more about it, and it seems that Sweden has deported significantly more than the average of the rest of the EU. Definitely seems like an intentional hardline approach.
Indeed. And they’re picking on the softest target they know - this thread is ample proof that nobody will step up to defend the British because Brexit was all our own fault, after all - just to pad the numbers out.
Just so a far-right government in Sweden can be seen to be tough on immigrants. Dick, dick move.
This is the core of it. Sweden Democrats (that was formed by neo-nazis) will welcome anything that makes the deportation numbers go up.
The Guardian has really been trying to blow this story up. It’s not that big of a deal when it’s people from the middle east getting deported, but when it’s Britons?
It sucks for the UK that a majority of those that voted to leave the EU are probably already dead, but that’s democracy for you.I mean, that’s probably part of the reason why Sweden is an outlier in the number of UK deportations. We got a right-wing government a couple years back, and they obviously want to please their constituents by saying “we deported this many criminals, remember to vote for us again!”
Britons are an easy target to pump those numbers up. There is usually nothing that hinders deportation to the UK, unlike to other countries with more instability/wars/etc.
Dessa ärenden är baserade på myndighetsbeslut och inte av den nuvarande regeringen. Det är också något du mycket väl vet…
lol, can’t believe i understood this comment almost perfectly even though i’ve only learned this language for around half a year
seems like what i’m doing is working :D
Välkommen till Sverige
haha, tack :D
It’s almost like the Guardian is a UK newsagent based in London.
Its a newspaper. Newsagents are the shops old people visit to buy newspapers.
In Sweden we have plenty of news about young people with parents from all over the world being deported despite being born here and had their education here and have a good job and are paying back in taxes.
Nobody but die hard nationalist and idiots are supporting this shit around here.
Same story, different place.
A single referendum resulting in 52% to 48% split. Based upon lies repeated by captured media organisations and politicians. Implemented by multiple governments that all gained less than 50% of the popular vote. In a FPTP representative party parliamentary monarchy system. And ratified by an unelected chamber with hereditary members, is hardly what I would call democracy.
It’s messed up, not to mention the “first past the post” system you have over there.
But wild to think that up to 1/3rd of the Brexit leave-voters might’ve died since 2016 according to some estimates. It really feels like a big middle finger as they descended into the dirt.I do feel the need to point out that we had a referendum. Everything else applies to everything the government does, but Brexit was technically one of the most democratic decisions the UK has made, actually giving people a vote instead of having someone choose on their behalf.
A referendum on a hypothetical “should” with no terms or conditions agreed. “Soft” Brexit? “Hard” Brexit? Something in the middle? Good Friday agreement? None of that was hashed out.
If there were a second referendum after negotiations, saying “based upon the terms agreed with the EU should the UK leave the EU?” then perhaps I may agree.
But without that there’s bugger all democratic about the process.
You misunderstand me: Brexit is not an example of good democracy, but the bar is so low that one single vote on a hypothetical with no established aim is still more democratic than any other decision our government makes. All the stuff about governments without majorities and unelected chambers still applies to all their other decisions, but don’t even have a single public vote to back them up. It is less democratic.
It’s not that big of a deal when it’s people from the middle east getting deported, but when it’s Britons?
There’s definitely a good amount of first world hypocrisy here, but also Sweden’s conduct flies in the face of the withdrawal agreement Britain signed with the EU, so there is a story here.
That’s something I wasn’t too knowledgeable on, but you’re right, it does seemingly goes against the agreement that EU and UK might’ve come to agree on. I haven’t read the fine print though, but it would look like Sweden might be breaking it.
but that’s democracy for you.
Congrats, you won the internet award of the day for making Putin spit out his vodka this morning.
I agree Putin is a bastard, like any great man currently in power, though I think he’s not behind everything. It’s like saying the Nazis won because of French or American influence to destabilise the Weimar republic. Certainly, efforts were made to destabilise competing nations, but only focusing on that ignores the crises that to this day continue to bring forward reactionary sentiment. Sweden for example has high rates of unemployment.
Hello .ml account.
The Russian interference with both the 2016 US Presidential elections through Cambridge Analytica and Brexit is very much documented through ISC’s “Russia Report” (July 2020).
Hello .ml account.
Hi?
The Russian interference with both the 2016 US Presidential elections through Cambridge Analytica and Brexit is very much documented through ISC’s “Russia Report” (July 2020).
This doesn’t prove anything, except affirm what I was saying about interference. Russia was not the only culprit behind Trump winning 2016, there are also factors other factors outside of that. Structural changes in rural communities for example and the aftershocks of 2008.
i’m kind of starting to think we should start shaming reddit.world like they do our instance
No, because feudposting is immensely cringe.
The fediverse is stronger together. Our internet comrade.
It’s kind of absurd that they’re shaming the place that is more or less the originator of Lemmy. I think it’s the third time in a month or so that someone used the instance I just happen to be using as an “argument” for why I’m wrong.
It’s not really shaming, it’s creating awareness that anytime someone says something about Putin or the Russians or Chinese, a user comes with NoT JuSt rusSiA! And they happen to be .ml accounts.
Russia has been trying to destabilise the west for decades now and there’s plenty of evidence pointing the same way.
We can have a discussion whether you think Russia “has to” attack because they feel NATO is encroaching on former Soviet territories, and I would probably agree, but that doesn’t mean Putin’s oligarchy is finger licking innocent, or even just a minor player.
Another thing very typical in these arguments: “that didn’t happen”, followed by no evidence. And self victimisation “we’re the OG, respect your elders”.
Very poor arguments, and tricks only used when a party is losing an argument.
Also you’re not wrong, it’s just that Putin’s oligarchy doesn’t need any unpaid (let’s hope) defence in internet forums.
Tariffs on flatpack furniture now!
More expensive furniture for the UK? In whose interest is that? Certainly not in the interest of the UK citizens…
The yanks are doing it across their economy and look how much they are winning.
/s
🤣
I see the grudges between the kings of Sweden and Britain are still alive and well.
Stories like these are a good reminder to people in the US saying they will just move somewhere else.
There’s really no guarantee anywhere of safety, and when you leave your home country you become the immigrant.
Maybe that will go well, but if anti immigrant populism starts rearing its ugly head anywhere history has shown time and again it can get bad.
There’s really no guarantee anywhere of safety
Frankly, there’s no guarantee anyone will allow you in in the first place. A lot of these people really, really overestimate the strength of the American passport and think this translates to some immigration advantage, but in most cases it doesn’t. You still need a, usually very specific and skilled job that’s hard to find people for, marriage, or close family that’s already there. A few countries extend that out to grandparents, but that seems uncommon.
Immigrating anywhere is really, really hard just from a legal perspective, nevermind the cultural and/or linguistic isolation that wears on you over time. There’s a reason a lot of people don’t do it and of those that do, many go back before too long.
People will support/apologize for shit like this and wonder why fascists are gaining power where they live.
I get that there has been issues with bureaucracy and delays and whatnot… but they really should have started the citizenship process right when the right honourable, friend of the pigs, Mr. Cameron announced they would have the vote.
If a gang gathers at my yard and they tell me they will vote if they will set my house on fire or not, I start dialing the fire department then, not when they start whittling the kindling.
I’m not big on victim blaming either, but I do think it’s weird to consider Sweden your primary home, and yet not apply for citizenship much earlier than that.
Prior to the law change a couple months ago, he could have become a citizen after just 5 years (or 3 if cohabitation with a Swede). Both the UK and Sweden recognize double citizenship as well, so there’s really no reason not to…
He has also missed out on all non-local elections his entire adult life, because non-citizens can only vote for local government, and now he’s paying the price. It’s very sad.
Literally the whole point of the Withdrawal Agreement is that you retain the rights you had as an EU citizen. My ID card essentially has “treat as an EU citizen even though he’s British” written on it (it actually says “beneficiary of the withdrawal agreement”, but that’s the meaning), so why would I need or particularly want to change my citizenship?
The whole “they shouldn’t be allowed to live here if they won’t apply for citizenship” line is exactly the anti-EU-FoM line that the Brexiteers used to justify Brexit. It’s genuinely amazing how every time this comes up all the supposedly anti-Brexit people start parroting UKIP lines like they’re gospel, because apparently it’s only a problem when it’s Poles or Romanians on the receiving end, not Brits.
Tbh, I didn’t even realize I was doing victim blaming. I just thought that was common sense. Life is unfair and bureaucracy is cold and not flexible. You just got to have your ducks in a row and papers in order, in time. And when I say “in time” I mean like 2 years before the absolute last chance. If you are not 10 steps in front of things, this shit happens.
I know because I’ve experienced it myself and every time it was my fault for doing things withing the allowed time but not early.
Sweden didn’t even decide what the correct process was until the end of 2020, months after other EU nations, because their government is incompetent.
And it turns out your advice is completely wrong - as this guy found out, citizenship is discretionary, and not covered by the withdrawal agreement. What he should have done is follow the paperwork for registering as a beneficiary under the WA, his mistake was thinking citizenship was a better idea. (Not that that paperwork is a requirement of the WA either, but who knew that the Swedes of all people would be the ones to break an EU treaty?)
Sellers was aware that Brexit might affect his right to stay in the country and, without any communication from government authorities, he considered his best option was to apply for Swedish citizenship.
This he did in September 2021, before the Brexit deadline of 31 December that year.
Seems like he did everything by the books.
Yeah, like I said, I know theres been issues with that stuff.
But thats why starting the process in 2021 September was like 5 years too late lol. Should have started it when the campaign for the vote was going on, at the latest on the day the results came in.
Nobody knew what the process was the day the results came in. Most of us found out beginning of 2020, and the Swedish government fucked around for another 9 months and didn’t even pass the law until the end of 2020.
but they really should have started the citizenship process right when the right honourable, friend of the pigs, Mr. Cameron announced they would have the vote
I don’t think it’s straight-forward like that.
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And that’s 458 more jobs for real brits! All it cost was a few tens of thousands of jobs due to decreased trade and damage to the economy!
No it’s 458 less jobs, since these people were deported from Sweden so they’ll likely go back to the UK, given they can find a job. More likely the amount of jobs will remain quite similar.
Oh shoot, sorry read that headline completely backwards. My bad
