Hi! I’m looking to collate/list community-funded Fediverse ISPs with multiple services. Some aggregate of servers that offer multiple services, not necessarily just Fediverse related, but at least one Fediverse service.
As examples, I can list:
I know there’s one out there that also provides email (can’t recall which), which is interesting as most people wouldn’t dare.
I think something like a (socialist) cooperative is a particularly good fit for internet services.
They’d be be (co-)owned and managed by the users themselves. Plus internet servers are kinda cheap, I can easily afford to pay for one even all by myself. I just need people to talk to. And we need to collaborate on the content, moderation and software that powers it.
Absolutely. It’s hard to build stuff like that because we are so not used to it, but that’s where we need to go.
Well, the whole internet started as a cooperative of research institutes. It’s baked into the design, infrastructure, all early protocols are laid out like that. And even well after that, we got lots of independent discussion boards, blogs, different communities here and there. Main point being, people put in a lot of effort to make up their own nice corners.
I think issue isn’t that we weren’t used to it. That was kind of what everything was about starting with the 70s, and central to it for at least the next 30 years. It’s more that we actively forgot! Or better, were made to forget.
No, it wasn’t cooperative, it was libertarian from the start. Every man for themselves, do what you want, cooperate how you want, exploit how you want. The internet has never been a cooperative endeavor and the web hasn’t changed it. Some of the stuff was, but it was an exception: wikipedia, osm, etc…
“Cooperative” here isn’t just “be nice to each other”, it’s “work for each other” and the ethos of the internet is definitely not that.
I strongly disagree. If you look at protocols like SMTP or Usenet, or how packets are being forwarded or names assigned, that all heavily relies on cooperation. I mean that’s the single reason why we added all the stuff on top over the years. Because the original idea was, it’s a network of cooperating entities. And they didn’t really factor in exploitation and ulterior motives. And all the selfishness of the companies. We would have had far less issues if this wasn’t how it was laid out.
And all the structure emerged from groups of people using and shaping it. It used to be a lot more difficult. You’d be your group and want to interconnect to another group of people. The main point about a network is the interconnections. And back then you couldn’t just plug a cable into the wall yourself and be done with it. That was people paying some excavators and a location in the next exchange. Making peering agreements with other entites and it wasn’t as much about profit as it is today. Or they set up phone lines and the associated infrastructure. They stored and forwarded messages for other people, routed their data, set up exchanges and public boards. All working both for other people and for their own benefit.
Also, there wasn’t any superior entity who told them what to do. They themselves decided what protocols to agree upon, how to do it etc. We got very interesting stories on what they did with problematic central parts like DNS after the internet got too big and it couldn’t be one university doing all the work for the entire country anymore, as it used to be in my country in the early days.
I see your point and I agree with you, the very beginning was cooperative. But that cooperation happened only between technical users who had the proper knowledge to be part of it. The mindset wasn’t one where everyone was welcome the way they are, but everyone was welcome if they could get up to speed with the technique. I think that is the core problem I have with the way “cooperation” was organized at the time. But you’re right, it wasn’t as adversarial as I had in mind.
Well… I’d say it’s mostly like that. For example a socialist agricultural cooperative will be made up of farmers. A writers guild won’t necessarily welcome factory workers. They’re groups to pool resource but they share a specific common goal. In contrast to for example a central communist government which manages all the domains and all people.
But we have user groups as well. It somewhat all mixes but I’d say something like a Linux user group, the Ubuntuusers wiki or a repair cafe counts. And we definitely also welcome all kinds of people on the Fediverse. And we even try to accommodate them with whatever balance we managed to strike. Sometimes it ain’t easy…
This is where I disagree 😅 who is welcome in the community really is the decision of the community. The vision that only the good ones can get in is stil the adversarial position I really wish we would all fight. A writers’ guild is useful for fighting against the existing domination, but ultimately what we want is for everyone to be able to write when/what/how they want, while also being able to work at the factory, plow the fields, take care of children and elderly, etc… that is a socialist cooperative.
What we can do now towards this goal: have cooperatives of people who want to “be on the internet”, composed of tech and non-tech people, all making decisions. We’re trying to do something like that with deuxfleurs, it’s hard, but I’m sure it’s the right way !
I mean that’s kind of what we do. Guilds and associations will put in quite some effort to empower young talent. The Linux community takes great pride in helping average people with their computer woes. We also take pride in welcoming all contributions no matter who you are, if you’re 12yo school kid or 60 and a woman… We’ve set up a lot of projects in a way people without technical expertise can use it, even contribute with i.e. translation, documentation, ideas… Sometimes there’s issues with egalitarianism. But most people think it’s some kind of priority to get it right.
I think main issue is, why do you need to pool crops on an industrial scale if you don’t have access to land and a tractor? What’s the point in going to the writers guild meetings if you never write? I mean -of course- once you do write (maybe as a hobby, but have some idea of what it’s about, or something to contribute?), or aspire to become a writer, you should be allowed to get in…
I think it’s mainly about focus. Different people need different things. Of course we could make an agricultuiral collective about empowering women to write… But I don’t think it works out in practice. You kinda sometimes need to focus. Even if there’s other noble things to do. That doesn’t really take away from anything, I think it’s more nature of reality, how people can’t do everything all at once, all in the same place, and there’s a bazillion conflicting interests within the group.
(Plus, I found it’s quite boring if I’m sitting in a meeting with the wrong group of people. I don’t get most of the stuff they’re talking about. And I’m afraid i’ll keep them from getting stuff done if I ask a million beginner questions. Also I’m not really invested in the topic so… Idk. I just don’t think it’s necessarily a good fit. I’m definitely against gatekeeping and secret meetings, though… )
And regarding the internet, this is how the internet is supposed to work. Everyone can send in RFCs! And people did. You don’t have to be an admin for that, or prove some merit… The internet is specifically set up to factor in some kind of level playing field for new ideas and participation by random people.