I was just sitting at the mall taking a break from mall walking. A man walked over to me when I wasn’t even looking up. He said "I haven’t seen you here before. " I said I wasn’t really here to talk to people and got up and walked away. He said he would leave, he may even have said sorry. I said I was ready to leave anyway. In retrospect I think he may have just been slightly mentally challenged so I wish I had been a little softer, he did not turn out to be aggressive. Looking for suggestions on something still clear and firm but more polite? This scared me for some reason, I think how fast he walked up and sat down near me.
Editing to add a key detail, he sat down close to me which is probably what made me more nervous than I would have otherwise been. I appreciate all the thoughtful feedback I’ve gotten and interesting discussion.
Approaching a woman to strike up a conversation is a bit of a fine art to do it in a way that doesn’t skeeve them the fuck out and plopping your ass down right next to them is definitely in the list of don’ts. Hell I’m a guy and I’d be skeeved out a bit if this happened to me.
You did nothing wrong and I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt of just being socially unaware since he didn’t press it.
You know, somehow we have got to get back to the place where strangers can talk to each other in public places. I understand your position and why you needed to do that. I just regret the fact that conversations in public seem to be a lost art.
My dad is one of those people who makes friends everywhere he goes - talking to people in elevators, etc. and people react well to it. Everybody can’t be that outgoing and shouldn’t be. But I think the % of people who can do that now is going to be much less than it was in the past, which is a shame.
I say hi to almost everyone I pass. This gets me some weird looks when I’m away from home where people are not as friendly. I absolutely understand why women don’t do the same. At least 50% of guys are dangerously delusional in how they view and approach interacting with women. If I was a chick, I would be Lesbian as fuck on safety grounds alone.
Hey you were nice to me in your post. This means you want to fuck, right?
It is a shame, but it’s not simply individual personal attitudes that’s causing this. People are afraid of strangers. The problem is, there are too many cases where that’s actually justified now.
The bad people have in fact ruined it for everybody. They have made it legitimately dangerous to have this sort of openness and trust in most slices of society, at least for people who look and behave a certain way, or were born certain ways. The problem is, under the influence of traditional media and social media and government and all the other dysfunctional and corrupt systems in our society, we’ve started tolerating the actually bad and dangerous people in society, instead of punishing them. Often we’re actually celebrating them, and in some cases even electing them President. It makes it almost impossible to sustain a functioning society when bad people are allowed to do bad things with impunity or worse, reward for their behavior. This is what’s causing the breakdown of society. Trust is hard to build and easily broken, and now it’s been broken and it seems like fewer and fewer people are interested in trying to rebuild it.
Why the fuck would women trust anyone in this society when allegedly half of the people in the world’s most economically powerful and culturally influential country voted for a party who is now occasionally saying women shouldn’t have the right to make decisions about their own bodies or even have the right to vote. These horrifyingly regressive attitudes are not just extremist throwaway comments because they are being paired with actions in the US and around the world, and they have serious consequences.
And yes, I am allowed to bring politics into this, because society is literally made out of politics. That’s what politics is, it’s the primary ingredient for making civilization function and it defines how it functions. Our aversion to discussing contentious “politics” is what has allowed society to decay to the point it has. This is not about being “woke” this is about being intelligent enough to want to live in a civilized society. Civilization requires not just moral boundaries but also the willingness to treat those who push at or exceed those moral boundaries as an existential threat, because they are. If you want your society to be good, you cannot tolerate evil. The boundaries and definitions are not always clear, but we must grapple with them as they stand, not avoid them. Grappling with these issues is the day-to-day work required to make civilization function. It is not a failing that we will always have these issues and always struggle with these issues, but it is a failing if we stop trying to struggle with them, because then we’re no longer keeping society functioning. Politics is life. Life is politics.
The irony here is that… you are one of those bad people.
You’re entire attitude here is the pure hostility and suspicion without any evidnece to back it up.
A random stranger on the street has nothing to do with Epstein or Trump, and your assumption they do until otherwise proven ‘innocent’ an incredibly toxic and hostile way of living life.
Perhaps you should stop obsessing over this stupid shit because you have no control over it and never will. Nor will anyone else who isn’t also part of the social elite.
Your political beliefs also have no bearing on your personal deeds with other people. Plenty of hardcore leftist liberals lie, cheat, and steal and would do so from you if given the opportunity. Perhaps even you yourself have done those things, and you certainly seem to think they’d be justified against the ‘enemy’ you imagine is lurking around every corner.
100% this ☝️
I talk to folks around me all the time. Standing in line for checkout at a store or something? I’ma talk to you.
I don’t walk up on folks out of nowhere, but if we are in near proximity for more than a minute, I’ma talk to you.
Being in line together is different. I’m curious though, if someone is giving you one word answers and seems like you don’t wish to continue the conversation do you back off ?
I talk to people in public a lot but if they seem closed off I’ll end it
Yeah, no point in talking to someone who isn’t talking back. Most folks I meet out seem to be dying for someone to talk to though.
Most people are told to be afraid because of TB/Twitter and internalize it. That makes them, partly, losers. The people that go out and make human connections usually know this, and do it to remind people that real life isn’t on the internet or in their heads. I do it too sometimes for fun, other times I’m like the rest of them.
Most people are told to be afraid because of TB/Twitter and internalize it.
No, most women are afraid because 1 in every 4 of us have been raped. Women all know someone who has been raped, whether it’s themselves or the other women in their life.
We don’t need social media to tell us to be afraid. Men do a good enough job of making us scared already.
or real life expereince with people like the OP have taught us it’s not worth it.
Frankly, I don’t want to interact with people who assume I’m mentally ill for being friendly to them. And where I live at least, that’s the way a lot of folks react to friendly conversation if you are like standing in line with them. they act like you’re trying to assault them.
Then they go on reddit and lament how body wants to be their friend… well because you reject anyone who tries to be friendly to you and you mischaracterize them in your mind as some terrible person.
and it’s very aged based. I have a dog. people over 50 have no problem petting and asking me about my dog. millennials and younger folks, are like visible anxious and paranoid about interacting with me and asking me to pet my dog. I am also a millennial, I do not understand any of it. But I’m not on social media and I barely use my smart phone for anything other than phone calls and email, so I understand I’m an outlier in the way I interact with people. People my own age think I am weird for not wanting to text, and think my preference for phone calls and face to face interact is ‘demanding’.
I suspect this might be cultural. In some parts of Switzerland (e.g. rural LU) you’re expected to greet strangers walking past you. Do that in Zurich and you might get the same kind of negative feedback. OTOH, OP’s case was more than a courteous “hello”…
Yes, it’s cultural. It’s also part of the ‘loneliness epidemic’ that is affecting most westernized countries. As a larger and larger cohort of the population becomes socially isolated, especially young adults.
And frankly, I’ve noticed a huge cultural shift in my own city the past 5 years. I used to have way more casual interactions, and now many of those same casual interactions are viewed with hostility and suspicion… just like OP’s reaction.
10 years ago if someone dropped something and you picked it up for them they’d thank you. Now they act get angry with you for trying to help them, and sometimes accuse you of theft or harassment. And that type of reaction basically teaches folks to just not bother, it’s a type of death spiral. Even personally, as the years go by and the hostility ratio goes up, it makes me increasingly want to socialize less in general. Even many of my closer friends from years ago have gone down this rabbit hole of hostility and suspicion, and I stopped interacting with them because it was so exhausting and miserable to be around someone who thinks the bartender is ‘looking at them funny’… no it’s you whose looking at the bartender funny… you idiot.
It is increasingly difficult to find folks who are receptive and open minded to strangers, which is the building block of any/all socialization. And what’s incredibly rare is folks who can just politely say no without demonizing the other person.
As someone who never really got along with strangers ever, I kind of feel like a bad survivor in a shitty apocalypse.
I socialise at festivals, then I forget the people and they forget me. Otherwise, it’s always been more bother than use.
Sad to hear you’ve lost something though…
Don’t assume of other people, and you’ll think less about thinking less of them. I get ignored most of the time, but that’s the game isn’t it. I secretly know you’re a human down there, even if you want to act like I’m not here. Let’s see just what I can get away with - sorta thing.
I don’t assume. I observe and I listen.
The problem with a lot of folks is that… they are massive massive hypocrites when it comes to this stuff.
And they catastrophize ordinary harmless interactions into these hyperbolic experiences in their head and make insane conclusions about absolute strangers who gave them no evidence to support their judgements. I also encounter it a lot when dating too. I meet strange women and they start lecturing me about myself… when they know absolutely nothing about me. But the weird fiction in their head they have already written so intense and real to them, that often they totally reject any real facts about me that don’t fit the story they have already made up. Especially the past few years I had so many expereinces where people tell me about myself, and I go ‘well that’s not true, I did x instead of y’ and they go ‘NO, YOU’RE LYING I KNOW YOU DID Y’. And weird shit like that.
I wonder if OP has legit dealt with mentally ill folks at all. I have. They don’t act polite and respect your boundaries, they get up in your face and scream and threaten you. And usually fixate on something bizarre. Last time it happened to me a few months ago it was a guy on the subway who started screaming at me about my boots being gay and how he wants to fuck me because they are so beautiful.
OP wrote mentally challenged, not mentally ill.
Okay so I assume TB isn’t tuberculosis here, but what did it stand for?
I suspect they meant FB, although Facebook feels like tb sometimes lol
Ahh I’m dumb I figured I just wasn’t aware of some other platform. I was going twitter… twitch… tiktok… where the fuck is a B lol
I think it’s good you listened to your instincts and were firm. If he has a disability that makes social things complicated, being obvious was a favor to him. If he did have bad intentions, your immediate willingness to leave showed you weren’t an easy mark.
There are probably good scripts for this, but I don’t know them. I just think you should know it doesn’t sound like you handled it badly.
I appreciate it!
Nope. You did nothing wrong.
I think you did fine. As a guy with nieces, my standard for how I’d approach a woman socially is how I’d like another man to approach one of my nieces socially. In a public place where she has several outs if she gets a bad vibe from the situation. But also confident and direct. But just because he shot his shot respectfully doesn’t mean you owe him conversation. Being at a mall to shop or to walk or to kill time is perfectly fine. A lot of younger people do use it as a meeting place because it is big and public and you can explore similar interests while shopping, or even window shopping. When I was younger, I avoided the mall because “mall people” weren’t my kind of people, but now I can see the advantage.
I’d ask you how you’d prefer to be approached, but it’s beside the point since you weren’t looking to be approached in the first place, and that’s fine too.
You did nothing wrong.
The message was clear: women were meant to be frightened, not empowered by these stories. The power of “fuck politeness” lies in how it “locates women’s daily fears and vulnerability to violence in the context of a feminist politics about deference and men’s status and power.”
Women are socialized from a young age to prioritize others’ comfort, even at the expense of their safety. This “deference behavior” is what feminist scholars identify as one way “women acknowledge and reinforce the higher social status of men.” However, through the MFM community, women find permission to reject these dangerous social expectations.
“Before I became a part of this community and was given permission to ‘fuck politeness,’ I would have uncomfortably chatted with this guy for fear of seeming rude. From a very young age, it’s ingrained in us to be polite and never offend anyone,” wrote one listener in Reddit.
Very good excerpt! I’ll say I want to be gentle with men in these situations for my own safety as well… don’t want to be antagonistic…I agree with you though!
As a dude I feel if I wanted to just be nice to you when I sat down if next to you, I’d have said 'hey how are you?" Waited for your reply and been like “that’s nice.” And just got lost in my phone.
Mentally challenged or not “I haven’t seen you before…” just doesn’t sound casual to me as a dude. It sounds like a slick “Hey baby, you look good.” But with make up on it.
Agreed do what makes you feel safe, but that is kind of you to even consider he might not be all Mentally correct.
Oh absolutely! Gotta do what makes you feel most safe in a situation and fawning (being nice until you can get away) is a valid way to deal with them. But don’t worry about hurting their feelings either way.
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I would never approach someone who was not looking up at me unless I really had to, like they had dropped something. I can’t think of a time a woman has approached me in this way.
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Of course I have.
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A woman approaching another woman and a man approaching a woman is different. Why are we pretending it isn’t?
I would absolutely leave if a man approached me like that while I was alone. And it’s not wrong.
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Ive been raped before. I don’t need you to tell me it’s in my fucking head.
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Telling women to stop being afraid of men and get off social media is fucked up.
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I was afraid of men long before social media existed based on personal experiences receiving unwanted and inappropriate attention and comments. Note I’m not saying ALL men but this is based on personal experience, nothing to do with social media, what a stretch.
I think any man that approaches a woman who is alone and exhibiting body language that is not open to conversation and then proceeds to sit down near her and start a conversation rudely is a problem.
It’s not just any man.
People have to shoot their shot somehow.
It’s fine to not be interested, neither one of you did anything wrong.
You’re fine, he may have been mentally challenged, he may be immersed in a mall walking social group that has formed there and thought it was a risk worth taking based on previously successful or milder experiences, but you are well within your rights socially and everything else to be firm and curt and avoidant. I applaud your continued assessment and concern, it shows you actually care about people’s feelings, so imo you’re fine and will do great with whatever options you go with in the future. If you want my suggestion for a slightly easier refusal, I’d maybe just say “I really do appreciate your being social and being welcoming, I’m just not up for socializing today, sorry” and that should do it. But I think you did fine.
That’s good phrasing, thank you!
‘I’m not really here to talk’ and leaving isn’t rude at all, don’t sweat it. If you had screamed at him that he was a creepy POS or something then you’d have a good reason to feel bad if he had some kind of intellectual/developmental disability, but you didn’t, and even if he does there’s a point where you have to learn you’re not a cute kid who can just walk up to people at random and start talking to them anymore (or at least not have everyone be as receptive to it).
It is totally reasonable to react the way you did. You don’t owe it to other people to be comfortable around them. They should be thinking about what they can do to make you comfortable, ideally before they do it, and this guy clearly wasn’t. If it is because of some disability or something that’s totally plausible too, but that’s his problem and his cross to bear, not yours. You weren’t rude or cruel, but you were uncomfortable, and you’re allowed to be. If he is capable of learning from that, maybe he will, and I think it would be a good lesson for him to learn.
You don’t have to feel bad about it, it makes sense that you regret how the interaction turned out after the fact, but that regret comes from the additional information and processing time you had afterwards to think about it. If you want to reconsider that guy as a possibly decent fellow who deserves another chance in retrospect that’s alright, and maybe if you see him again you can extend a little more tolerance for his behavior if you think it’s safe. But it doesn’t mean you were wrong in the first place. In general, you should trust your instincts and listen to them, they’re just trying to keep you safe, and better safe than sorry. You should not have to be scared of a man sitting down next to you, but the way some men act in the world we live in, you have every right to. It’s sad, but it’s realistic, and you are not responsible for solving this problem on society’s behalf. When we’ve built a society where you can have a man sit next to you and feel safe about it, then that’ll be great. But we’re not there yet.
They should be thinking about what they can do to make you comfortable, ideally before they do it, and this guy clearly wasn’t.
I agree that OP’s reaction was reasonable but what about the guy’s actions make it so clear to you that he wasn’t thinking about OP’s comfortability? They tried to strike up a friendly conversation and backed off immediately when it wasn’t well-received.
It’s fine to not want to talk but people really shouldn’t have to avoid basic human interaction just because 1% of people might not be interested at that time.
This scared me for some reason, I think how fast he walked up and sat down near me.
Editing to add a key detail, he sat down close to me
I don’t directly know OP’s age or the man’s age in this case, but I’m giving OP the benefit of the doubt, and from context I’m inferring that the man was probably older than her given that she refers to him as a “man” and it just sounds like she’s relatively younger (especially if this is sort of one of her first experiences with this sort of thing).
The “sat down close to me” also makes it sound like there was sufficient open seating, and the man specifically chose to sit directly next to and close to this girl. I understand that public spaces often have inadequate seating options and seats that are packed too close together for comfort, and that’s a separate problem, but there’s nothing suggesting that’s what actually happened here, and as I said, I am giving OP the benefit of the doubt.
With those contextual details in place, in my world and perspective, I would suggest that the older man approaching the younger girl to talk should probably approach with some caution, not “fast”, and perhaps even ask permission before sitting and trying to strike up a conversation. I don’t think that’s unreasonable or too much to ask. I’m not saying anyone can’t strike up a conversation with anyone they choose to, of any age, but for the people that choose to do so with strangers, they would benefit from having some social awareness if the situation is anything like what I am picturing (unfortunately realistically) in my head.
This is insane.
Other people are not psychic. They cannot read people’s minds.
This is the attitude that is destroying things, right here. This expectation that an absolute stranger should know your preferences and what you want without ever expressing it.
The only way they can realize or understand any of that is if you talk to them first. This attitude is basically ‘everyone else should cater to me and they are shitty if they don’t do that’. Who, in their right mind, would ever want to interact with someone who is that massively entitled? Who thinks their comfort, their preferences, are the only legitimate or relevant ones?
Talk about epitome of self-absorbed.
I’d say that’s a little bit overly dramatic take on what I was trying to say. I understand where you’re coming from, but I wasn’t calling for anyone to read any minds. But a little bit of sensitivity to the facts and statistics is not an unreasonable ask:
Approximately 4.7 million women in Canada — 30% of all women aged 15 and older — have been sexually assaulted outside of an intimate relationship at least once since age 15. [Source: Statistics Canada, 2019]
That’s almost 1/3 of women, that’s a serious statistic, and it means that, as a man, you have a responsibility to approach unfamiliar women with at least a reasonable measure of respect for their safety and comfort. And it doesn’t even account for any potential bias towards exactly the sort of “attractive” women who tend to get approached by men much more frequently than others because they are in fact attractive: they literally attract these sort of situations and you can’t assume it’s because they choose to.
For someone throwing around accusations of being entitled and self-absorbed, you sound very much like you’re in fact the one saying ‘everyone else should cater to me and they are shitty if they don’t do that’.
I’ve been raped by women. More than one.
I don’t assume every woman I meet is a rapist.
Because women aren’t rapists. Rapists are rapists.
But please tell me more how I’m a rapist and every woman I talk to, regardless of her attractiveness to me, means I’m potentially going to rape her.
Also you leave out the fact most women are reaped overwhelmingly by people they already know, friends, co-workers, etc. Not random strangers. Not a convenient fact for your ‘1/3 random men you see are going to rape you’ worldview.
The fact that you are getting down voted for this comment is truly sad.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply! I’ve worked in some dangerous settings and had to be a bit firmer and these suggestions have been helpful while still being clear!
I think people who are socially inept are often advised to strike up innocuous little throwaway conversations with strangers in public places to improve their ability to interact. Unfortunately this is also exactly the MO of killers in CSI programmes.
It’s something I did when I learned I had autism. Helped a lot. Highly recommend. I’m female, though, and very not-scary.
I have done it a little myself because I have a natural tendency otherwise to close small talk down. I think because while I like people theoretically in practise that sentiment can wander.
It’s the MO of every human being when they are interacting with a stranger for the first time…
In retrospect I think it was the sitting down near me thing, like we were old friends, that made me react more strongly than I would have
I don’t like it when men position themselves close to me either. It’s uncomfortable and a forced intimacy that they haven’t earned.
A perception of forced rather than incidental interaction is common from those practising chitchat and those set on murder was my point.
Feedback unrelated to your core problem. I’ve found that when describing people it’s more appropriate/respectful to use man, woman, person or whichever way you like to describe people, save for male/female. The latter is good for speaking about subjects or patients in a more scientific/clinical/biological way, but can sound impersonal in an “othering” sense. Noones going to throw a fit over this unless you’re in a weird place online, but it does make your language softer and more personable
Yes, using “male” or “female” as a noun (rather than an adjective) is bad form when referring to people. At least, it’s non-standard.
That said, language is constantly evolving, and when there is a need, it will be filled. Convention be damned. And there is a need for a noun that means “girl or woman” that isn’t clunky. There’s no good “standard” word to use. I think that’s one of the reasons this usage is becoming more common. (Personally, it gives me the ick, probably because I heard it used mostly in misogynistic contexts c. 2010 and it’s hard to shed that connotation. But I see it more and more without that subtext more recently. I suspect in 50 years it will be “standard”.)
Similar deal with the singular “they”. Some people still complain about that, even though it’s been in use for a very long time (centuries, I think).
I, for one, am a strong proponent of…well, my username. After all, “bro” can be short for Broseph or Brosephina.
Good point , for some reason I don’t love the term “woman” but I am aware people use female pejoratively probably more often.
Thank God I’m not single.
I don’t know what it is but recently I’m seeing a lot of content about people “approaching” strangers and people saying it’s normal and people want to be spoken to. Some weird social media trend maybe.
I know I have watched videos about this also, that people say they are not approached or feel like they can’t approach others. My thing is body language and eye contact, if I’m out walking around making eye contact and we exchange a hello and see if more occurs fine. But if someone is totally closed off looking away… take the hint. And like dear lord don’t sit down without being invited to ! Chat a minute and ask first.
Before social media this was totally normal. See someone you want to talk to? Walk up and say hi. There’s nothing odd about it
yeah im not sure how prevalent it is now but in my city in ages past it was pretty common to talk at public transit stops and grocery lines and such. I mean there is a casual way to strike up a conversation and a creepy way and movies by and large have these two. Even comedies about someone seeming creepy who did not mean to.
I grew up without social media and to me this is not at all normal. The only strangers who talk to you want to sell you something, or they have some mental issues.
Maybe it’s a cultural thing? Apparently America is unusually friendly compared to the rest of the world, and striking up conversations with strangers is pretty normal.
America is huge huge, there are several different norms across the country. The people who live in the Southern states have a wildly different approach than people who live in the Pacific Northwest, for example.
Yeah, I’ve met Americans who somehow manage to do that. As a European, it never happened to me and if I think about doing it myself it just seems creepy and weird.
That’s probably it then. I’d say it feels weirder in America if you’re completely shut off to random small talk. It varies a bit by region, and certainly by individual, but I’ve never been anywhere in America where it’s strange to strike up a conversation standing in line or waiting for a bus or something.
