First things first, I don’t doubt it is a bad thing, considering who supports it and who doesn’t.

But my question is what exactly is the issue and what is the current and proposed voting process when it comes to IDs?

Here in my EU country, you have to show some version of a government ID, be it an ID card, drivers license or passport. And we don’t have to pre-register to vote.

  • Zeppo@sh.itjust.works
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    First thing is that it is up to states to administer elections and make their own rules and laws. Given the record of the current president, many people and states are not very interested in giving up power over that to the federal government, who keeps trying to claim and take control of state-run elections anyway.

    In the US, people are not automatically given IDs or driver licenses. They require a fair amount of time, other paperwork, and fees to procure. Therefore having one is automatically more likely for people with more time (retired, better job, etc), money, organized lives and physical ability since you must show up in person.

    By organized lives, I mean people of higher economic status are more likely to live in stable situations where they have social security cards, passports and birth certificates easily accessible. If you don’t have those documents - perhaps they were lost in a move, never given by parents, never applied for - it costs a fair bit to get them. A replacement SS card is free. A duplicate birth certificate can be $20-30. The average charge for an ID/DL is about $40. A copy of a marriage or divorce certificate is typically $10-40. A replacing naturalization certificate is almost $1,400.

    Getting these documents could take weeks and an amount of money that’s trivial to higher income people and significant to lower income people. Like voting, if you have a white collar job, it’s fairly easy to take time out to do it. If you have an hourly job with little flexibility and/or lack a vehicle, it’s much more difficult to go to government offices to obtain this paperwork. Some might ask, why would someone not have at least a driver’s license or ID? Perhaps it expired, was lost, they moved and never got the paperwork, or couldn’t afford the fees and time. Younger people and non-white people are known to be less likely to have the documents that would be required. It also creates barriers for armed service members.

    Another aspect is the bill says women must prove their citizenship with documents that match their original, non-married name. So if you have a birth certificate that says Jane Doe but all your other documents say Jane Smith, since it was changed after marriage, that won’t work. The requirements would also make it harder for trans people to register.

    Next, there’s the changes to registration process. Currently 42 states allow you to register online or by mail. That would be nixed. Voters would have to show up at an office in person to register. Currently signing under penalty of perjury that you are a U.S. citizen is considered adequate, along with proof of residency and documents like an ID (which required the aforementioned birth certificate etc to get in the first place). Under the proposed law, a drivers license would not be adequate in 90% of states. In some areas, voters must travel over 200 miles to get to an election office in person.

    Another question is why this would be necessary. While Republicans have been claiming that non-citizens voting in federal elections is a major problem, there is no actual evidence of that. In fact, data from U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services says 0.04% of voters might be ineligible, and that’s considered likely an overcount. When states have tried similar laws in the past, it ended up disenfranchising far, far more legitimate voters than the number of illegitimate voters thwarted.

    So what’s the actual effect of this? Mainly, to make it harder for poor people and women to vote, two groups who are more likely to vote for Democrats.

    • neo2478@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      5 days ago

      Thank you for the very trhourough explanation. That’s all fucking distopian.

      I can imagine the issue with lack of easy access to government IDs also has other consequences for lower income people.

        • faythofdragons@piefed.social
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          Yeah, when I was homeless after high school and couch surfing, I needed to get a friend to notarize a statement that I was living with him to get my ID so I could get a job. I got lucky, I don’t know how I would have done it if I was sleeping rough.

      • hakase@lemmy.zip
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        How difficult/expensive/time-consuming is it to get a government ID in Europe? Is it something that’s sent to you with basically no action on your part?

        • neo2478@sh.itjust.worksOP
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          Unfortunately its neither free nor automatic, though it should be.

          It’s about €75 in my country, and you need to go in person. But in general, at least our labor laws are much better so its easier to take PTO for these things,and public transport is good to get there. Most people get them at 14 years old, when it becomes mandatory to have one.

        • Linda R@nord.pub
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          That depends completely on the country. There can be very big differences!

          In Finland it works so that you go to some company that will take a photo of you and uploads it to the police’s database. Then you go to the web site of the police, log in using your online banking passwords and apply for the new ID card or passport. The site might say “visiting the police station required”, in which case you must go physically to a police station to show your face. That was necessary for example when I was getting the first passports for my children. Or if you have no previous ID.

          The new ID card or passport is delivered to the nearest R-Kioski (think Seven-Eleven) and you get it from there by showing your previous ID. If it’s your first ID, you probably need to get it in person at the police station when it’s ready.

          USA has a rule that people can visit it visa-free only if they are from a country where passports and ID cards are renewed every 5 years or more often. Therefore, in EU the passports must be renewed every 5 years instead of every 10 years like it is in USA, where US laws regarding this do not apply.

          Taking the photo typically costs about 25 €, the actual document is something like 50 or 60 €. So, altogether about 75 € or so.

          And the official instructions for how to apply for an ID card are here: https://poliisi.fi/en/how-to-apply-for-an-identity-card

      • Maestro@fedia.io
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        Ah yes, a handful of cases over multiple elections. On a population of 340+ million people. You just prived the GPs point.

      • Zeppo@sh.itjust.works
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        I said there’s no evidence it’s a major issue. The numbers mentioned there are extremely small compared to tens of millions of votes. One person? Wow. 16 people? Im sure it was worth their time and taxpayer money. The stat I cited said .04%. Others say less. No elections are won or lost by .04%.

        The Heritage Foundation looked into this and found a total of 100 cases since 1982.

        https://electionfraud.heritage.org/search (Choose “alien” in the bottom menu).

        The idea that non-citizens would take the time and risk to vote illegally sounds pretty stupid to me, and it seems they agree.

          • Zeppo@sh.itjust.works
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            Not sure if that matters for like 5 people. Anyway, looking at the Heritage Foundation data, many of the illicit voters were Hispanic, a group that went for Trump in 2024 and are seen as a major bloc that got him elected. Most people from Central America are Catholic, and tend to be socially conservative. This group is supporting Trump less these days, but this goes back to 1982, as noted. What was your guess?

  • Skyrmir@lemmy.world
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    The US has about 3.8 million valid citizens with no official records, and about another 21 million that would need to jump through very difficult hoops in order to obtain their documentation. It’s called the Burned Counties phenomenon, because records were kept at the county level, that had a court house burned down. Or flooded, or destroyed by unrest. We like variety in our destruction.

    As will come to no surprise, the majority of those affected, are minorities who vote for Democrats. So the laws being proposed are designed around blocking them from voting, not getting them documented to vote.

    • neo2478@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      That’s crazy! It’s like 7% of the population! I feel that complicates life way beyond voting rights.

      Meanwhile, I have friends who received EU citizenship based in ancestry and literary contacted the relevant municipalities here and got birth records from their great grand parents. Of course, I am sure going that far back, many records were also lost.

      • Skyrmir@lemmy.world
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        Yep, a large enough chunk of the population to sway entire elections, which is why it’s an ongoing fight. And also why there’s never a push to fix it.

      • shalafi@lemmy.world
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        Closer to 1%, but still surprising. I’m not sure how one functions without identification.

  • JustPlainDave@lemmy.zip
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    5 days ago

    We don’t have a free national ID, even state IDs cost money. There should be no money involved in the right to vote.

    • Linda R@nord.pub
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      Same thing in EU. At least over here in Finland. But, the passport is paid for by the social service if you are on their money.

        • Linda R@nord.pub
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          5 days ago

          Yeah, but here nothing works without having an ID or a passport, so everyone must have access to it.

  • socsa@piefed.social
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    4 days ago

    The problem is primarily that it falsely validates a fascist conspiracy theory which is being weaponized to dismantle western democracy. That’s really most of it.

  • Beth@piefed.social
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    Well, it would disenfranchise a whole lot of people due to difficult to obtain (expensive, time consuming) on short notice. If it passed today many would not be able to vote in an upcoming election. It would specifically impact a large block of voters who tend to lean left. Oh, and we already use perfectly fine government issued IDs. This is just an extra hoop for poor people and women. In other words, not needed, voter suppression, targeted, and a poll tax.

  • Christopher@lemmy.grey.fail
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    I think a lot of it comes down to classism. While it’s probably unimaginable in a developed nation, it’s entirely possible for underprivileged citizens in the United States not to have a government issued ID. The hurdles to get one are also disproportionately greater for those individuals.

    It is largely seen as a form of voter suppression. And considering our history of weaponized poll and literacy testing, that’s understandable.

    • BorgDrone@feddit.nl
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      Aren’t you required to have a government ID?

      Here (.nl) you need an ID to access so many services that it’s basically impossible to function without one.

      Want to rent or buy/sell a house -> ID

      Want to go do a doctor -> ID

      Mobile phone contract -> ID

      Open a bank account -> ID

      Get a loan -> ID

      Take a driving exam -> ID

      Collect a package from a parcel point -> ID

      Buy alcohol, tobacco or weed -> ID

      Hell, I had to show ID when getting food delivery because apparently there was a tiny amount of alcohol in the desert.

      How does US society even function when people don’t have a government ID?

      • [deleted]@piefed.world
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        Aren’t you required to have a government ID?

        You are not required to possess one, no. Someone can exist in the US as a dependent and never need to purchase anything ever because someone else in the household takes care of the finances.

        • BorgDrone@feddit.nl
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          No health insurance, never need to go to a doctor or hospital?

          What if you’re ever asked for ID by the police?

          Over here, technically you aren’t required to have or carry ID. You just have to be able to show ID when asked by law enforcement. Meaning they can’t simply stop people and ask for ID and fine you when you can’t show one, so not carrying an ID in itself isn’t an offense. It’s just that when they have a valid reason to ask for you ID and you can’t show one, you get a fine for not being able to show ID.

          • feannag@sh.itjust.works
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            It’s state dependent about requirement to identify yourself go police, but i dont believe its required in any state to carry an ID on one’s person.

          • [deleted]@piefed.world
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            If you have to show ID to law enforcement or be fined then you are required to carry ID. Here you have to identify yourself, but you are not obligated to carry ID on you at all times. So if someone walks to a store and pays cash they don’t need to have an ID and cannot be fined or punished for not having one.

            It is required for something like driving as it involves a license and carrying it with you when driving is a requirement.

            As far as voting goes, in rural areas, especially where everyone knows each other, nobody needs ID because everyone knows Billy was born in the local hospital and lives with his uncle and he was added to the voter role decades ago so when he goes to vote he signed his checken scratch signature and Glenda gave him his ballot to vote. Prior to ID requirements you just verbally said who you were and signed so you couldn’t vote twice and this wasn’t an issue ever.

            The whole registration thing is so they knew who is voting where to give them the right ballot for local officials and to keep someone from voting twice and study after study showed it was not a significant problem. Requiring ID to vote only has downsides and is intended to be voter suppression in the US through cost an other obstacles.

      • Christopher@lemmy.grey.fail
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        Ideally, yes, this is how it should work. But some of our citizens do not have access to nearly all of these social resources.

          • [deleted]@piefed.world
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            Are they provided for free?

            We have to pay for ID in the US, and there is often a requirement for an address on paperwork so combined that makes it very difficult for the homeless to acquire an ID. For example, my state mails IDs which I’m pretty sure it intended to make it difficult for homeless people to get one.

            • BorgDrone@feddit.nl
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              Are they provided for free?

              No.

              We have to pay for ID in the US

              Same here. An ID card is €80 and a passport is €88. Both are valid for 10 years.

              and there is often a requirement for an address on paperwork

              Here you simply go to the municipality where you are a registered resident and request it there. They already have your address on file since you are required to register your place of residence.

              that makes it very difficult for the homeless to acquire an ID.

              I just looked it up how this works here. If you aren’t a registered resident of any municipality there’s a couple of them that handle ID applications for people without residence. You have to prove your nationality but that can be as simple as showing a bank statement proving that you receive dutch social security (homeless people receive monthly social security payments)

              my state mails IDs which I’m pretty sure it intended to make it difficult for homeless people to get one.

              Then how do they make sure it ends up with the person who requested it? Here you have to pick them up in person specifically so they can make sure that the person on the ID is the same person who is receiving it.

              • [deleted]@piefed.world
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                You are thinking logically and not ‘how do we punish homeless people and minorities for existing’. The US system doesn’t make logical sense for a functional society that doesn’t intentionally disenfranchise a large portion of the population

              • Tja@programming.dev
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                That’s super expensive. Last time I got an ID (for my kids) it was something like 6 eur.

                • UiUiUiUiUi@piefed.nl
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                  4 days ago

                  Thats the Netherlands for you. Neoliberal policies for at least a decade does that. And now we have a crack resurgence and teflon man promoted to head of nato.

  • TabbsTheBat (they/them)@pawb.social
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    Not an american, but I’ve seen this asked before and from what I remember a lot of it was about what counts as valid ID (as the US doesn’t have national ID cards like we do in EU countries), and the potential that the ID required would purposely be something hard to get to various communities that are discriminated against, in an attempt to “rig the vote” as it were

    Someone from the US probably has a better phrased explanation tho

  • gedaliyah@lemmy.world
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    Short answer: The USA has no national ID.

    Long answer: instead we have a patchwork of more than 50 different regional IDs (between states, territories, etc.), alongside a half-dozen ill-suited federal IDs, and numerous public and private institutional IDs (like university IDs or Costco cards).

    For the most part, all of these cost money. Due to inconsistent systems and sometimes unclear requirements, the people who are most likely to be disenfranchised are also the most vulnerable. Most state IDs require proof of residence like a utility bill, which can be impossible if you are homeless or off-grid. If you are disabled, you may not qualify for a driver’s license (the most common state ID). If you are trans (or a married woman), you may have paperwork with conflicting legal names.

    If you are reasonably well-off, on the other hand, you can afford to pay a private company to facilitate your passport application. The US passport is basically the gold standard of national ID, but fewer than half of Americans have one. It requires a certain amount of wealth to even need one, and the expense (money, time, etc) is not trivial.

  • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
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    What “voter ID law?” It would be unconstitutional to legislate that at a federal level and while I don’t doubt Republicans would love to try it, I’ve not heard about that.

    As with most laws in America, voting related laws are passed at the state level. There have been probably hundreds of bills like this over the past 20 years so you’d need to be more specific for anyone to address the “law” singular as you put it.

  • EtruDUR@thelemmy.club
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    It is very, very simple:

    It is mean to make it harder for anyone that is non-white to vote.

    We can parse it finer, but basically white people in aggregate are more likely to have the correct ID, time and ability to vote. Republicans know that this advantages them and so they work really hard to make it harder for anyone but the “right people” to vote.

    Their entire platform is basically coded racism, and has been for a very long time. Like any other cult, they justify every transgression by appealing to the “greater cause,” which is not religious in their case but the great promise of elevating those in the “in” group.

  • NABDad@lemmy.world
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    5 days ago

    Can you explain how it works in the EU?

    Does the EU specify the rules for how voting works in EU countries?

    • Jesus_666@lemmy.world
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      No, each EU country has its own electoral system. The EU is currently a federation of mostly independent countries. Most or all of these countries have voter ID laws. This is usually not a problem since everyone can be reasonably assumed to have a government-issued ID document.

      To give an example, in Germany your birth is always documented. As a citizen you always receive an ID card when you turn 16; in fact, you are legally required to have a valid one that includes current information. For example, if you move you have to make an appointment with the citizens’ center in your new municipality to change your registration and they’ll put a correction sticker with your new address on the ID card. If you change your name you have to get a new one, which costs about 50 bucks; same if you lose yours or if it expires. People under 24 and poor people get rebates, in the latter case of up to 100%.

      We don’t have a voter roll per se; all citizens receive voting invitations by mail several weeks in advance of an election. These are used in conjunction with your ID card to get access to your assigned polling place. The law mandates a certain density of polling places so nobody has to travel too far or wait for too long. The invitation also includes everything needed to register for mail voting including a postage-paid return envelope so poverty isn’t a factor in whether you can vote by mail.

      So a lot of the criticism about voter ID laws you hear in the United States doesn’t apply here because ID cards are ubiquitous (and have been for a long time) and we go out of our way to make sure poor people aren’t disadvantaged.

      • HobbitFoot @thelemmy.club
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        In contrast, most states issue the main identification credential through the Department of Motor Vehicles and will only have offices open in areas to meet demand for automotive registration purposes. So, a lot of inner city areas don’t have many offices to get ID cards and they usually are only open during working hours.

      • Linda R@nord.pub
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        In Finland there is no requirement to have an ID card. And within the Nordic countries (Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland), citizens of Nordic countries are allowed to roam without any ID whatsoever. There is a requirement that I must be able to prove my identity, however, and that can mean some hassle with having to visit a police station for many hours in that country, so it’s advisable to just have at least some form of ID card on you. Also, Finland is basically an island and the ship companies to Sweden require you to prove your identity with a government-issued ID card or passport.

        And then there’s Denmark, which often requires you to have a passport in order to cross the country’s border. But I am allowed to exist in Denmark as a Finnish person without any form of passport or ID. Just not cross the border :D

        In Finland you can also vote without an ID if you are able to prove your identity in some other manner. For example, if you’ve got someone with you that can vouch for you being you and has some way to prove their identity.

    • neo2478@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      When you are born or move, you have to register at the municipality. Then when it comes time for the elections, you get a voting pass in the mail a couple weeks before. On the day of the election, you just take your pass and any form of government ID (either current, or expired no more than 5 years ago) to a polling station in you municipality and vote.

      If you cannot go yourself, you can send another person with your voting pass and a copy of your ID. But usually, the polling places are very close to where you live and easily accessible by walking, biking or public transport.

      If you live abroad, you just get a mail in ballot that you send back by mail.

      This is in my country of course. Others are probably slightly different.

      • NABDad@lemmy.world
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        Ok, that’s kind of what I expected.

        So, one way to look at the US system is that the US as a whole corresponds in a way to the EU. Individual states in the US would correspond to EU countries.

        Of course, there are certainly differences. But in some ways individual US states are treated as separate, sovereign entities. The US Constitution leaves all management of elections up to the individual states. There aren’t really federal elections (well, apart from the electoral college, but let’s not get into that). There are state elections to fill federal offices. It is seen by most as inappropriate for the federal government to get involved in US elections.

        When you ask why the US doesn’t have a national ID, it’s like asking why citizens of EU countries aren’t required to have an EU ID. It’s more appropriate to ask why individual states don’t have state IDs.

        As you can imagine, there are 50 different variations on what the rules for such an ID would be.

        However, the biggest issue with having any kind of required, state-issued ID is resistance to giving the government more ability to track us. This despite the most virulently anti-surveillance people regularly updating their most intimate details in Facebook and Instagram.

        • neo2478@sh.itjust.worksOP
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          That’s interesting. Though one thing I will add is that IDs from any EU country is accepted by all other EU countries. I actually don’t live in the EU country I am from, and before voting with my drivers license on local elections, I voted with my passport from my own country. Ah and another thing is that you can only vote for the local elections if you are not a citizen, even if you are from another EU country.

          So in many ways, I think there is more interoperability between EU countries than between US states. Even with drivers licenses is very flexible. Where I am, you have to exchange it for a local drivers license within 15 years of moving (though you have 4 month to resgiter a car with plates from another country). In some cases even things like unemployment and disability pension continues being paid if you move countries.

          As for the tracking, I agree with you for the latter part. People don’t realize how much they are being tracked and exploited by mega corps. Anyway, even without a state or federal ID there, you still have to pay taxes and whatnot, so its not like the government has any less info about you. It just becomes an additional way to male life harder for low income people, because it raises the barrier of entry for support from the government.

          • HobbitFoot @thelemmy.club
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            States have some reciprocity, the recognizing of another state’s license as it’s own, but if isn’t always universal. For instance, the USA is going through a two decade plus upgrade to driver’s licenses and non-license ID’s to include proof of citizenship because a lot of states dragged their feet in implementing the additional filing systems required. Even then, states are still allowed to issue non-compliant ID’s and people will get them because they don’t want to spend the extra time to get them.

        • Linda R@nord.pub
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          EU does mandate how the national ID cards must look and what data must be written on them. It does not mandate that they have to exist, though. But in practice they do exist everywhere, and they look just the same anywhere in EU.

          In UK they either don’t have a national ID at all, or almost nobody has it. But it’s not relevant here because it’s not an EU country.

  • Tja@programming.dev
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    5 days ago

    Related question: why not put the threshold in the future? Like starting in 2036 you will need an ID to vote, you have 10 years to get one.

    • Brkdncr@lemmy.world
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      Because it’s not a problem, and implementing voter id comes with additional costs.

      The current setup works and is cheap.

      • dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works
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        It benefits people with money to make it difficult and expensive. The people who don’t have IDs are likely poor and depend on money from jobs that don’t allow them to just take off work to go to the court house.

        If the US were civilized, you’d just get a free government ID as a part of, idk, being a citizen.

  • HubertManne@piefed.social
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    5 days ago

    The US is run by the constitution. Its the set of rules the country agreed to abide by and in actuallity is the country. It did not exist until it was ratified and pretty much does not when its violated as a matter of policy. When interpreting there is actually a large body of writings from the founding fathers on how the various parts came to be. The philosophy that built the country. Its pretty clear that power originates with the people who are represented in the state and federal government. If further clearly says when something is unsure it is in the realm of the states or the people directly. In particular it says states decide how to run their elections. Due to the fact people can move around and between states the states started requiring registration for elections so they could verify the person does indeed reside in the state and locality where they are eligible to vote in the elections. Coming from the eu do you show an eu id or one from the country? In many ways the states are like countries in the eu. Essentially the us has a much stricter and local process so that only people eligible to vote do so. Even within the state the elections are largely run by the county or in the case of large cities the city. The state essentially just acts as oversite for the localities and collects the vote totals. Its basically so anti american to have the federal level involved as to be treasonous. Its disturbingly part of facist attacks on our checks and balances. Its a massively bad thing.