Not sure if they do it deliberately, but there’s like this sorta expectation to sympathize with parents who despite being poor still have children. Didn’t they make a CHOICE though? Do you think they should be solely responsible for making it?
This is bait.
No its not
Yes it is. This isn’t a binary question. Some people choose to have kids they can’t afford, some don’t have access to birth control, some have the finances when they had the kid and then something happened to their career or health, etc.
This is pure bait to get people fighting in the comments.
Losing a job counts as a consequence they should’ve accounted for. Having health issues at some point in your life is a statistical inevitability (this one is just a simple fact). Soooo… What is their excuse? Somehow society has decided that having an expensive hobby (raising a child) is far more deserving of sympathy than having other expensive hobbies 🙂. So what do you think of that? Why have we decided that?
“Just don’t lose your job”
Damn why didn’t I think of that?
Nah, that’s not what I am saying. IMO, you just dont reproduce until you are 100% sure that even IF you lose your job, you’re going to be fine
In this economy, with record layoffs hitting many different industries, how can anyone be sure what the future holds?
That’s the interresting part, you can’t 😀 and so its even more reason not to condemn yourself and a kid to bearing the load of being on a punishing side of the Matthew Effect. Just saying… IF I were them as they say or whatever
you are 100% sure that even IF you lose your job, you’re going to be fine
That’s never a guarantee.
I mean you do realize those child are people right? What are you suggesting anyways, sending them to the orphanage if you lose your job?? lol.
Also there os a ferrari message. I mean if someone goes poor from buying a ferrari it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be helped but they should probably sell the ferrari you know. Like what are you gonna do, sell your children? Do you want/expect a billionare to buy them on the black market buddy, pal, friendo, amigo, pal, buddy?
Also why do add a smiley face most of the time, come on buddy, pal, amigo, friendo, you’re not telling me you had absolutely no idea how people would react? And why would you add a smiley face to messages answering to angry people… or something like that idk. If you were not getting satisfaction out of it?
Yeah, like I said, excluding rape and lack of education its your choice to make a baby so if you believe in personal responsibility then you should (I think) apply this same princible to that choice and its consequences, but for some reason people treat it like its exwmpt from that rule
Because we are living animals and the purpose of life/reason life exists is due to reproduction. Is it always a wise or well thought out decision? Absolutely not. Is it a “hobby”? No, that is oversimplifying it to the point of nonsense.
fair enough
I’ll take the bait.
So firstly, to blame the poor is propaganda. It is a long and well documented strategy for people who are better off than you to use people who are worse off as the visible threat to your lifestyle. You’ll likely never see a billionaire but you’ll see plenty of homeless and immigrants and it’s easy to point to them and say “that’s what you’ll be if you don’t follow the rules” or “those are the people making it hard for you.”
There are no people that are poor by choice, they are forced into that position by a social structure that needs the threat of poverty to operate. So to blame people for doing a natural part of human biology while poor is like asking “how dare those in debt spend the money they owe on food to survive?”
Empathy is the only thing that threatens this status quo. Quit judging people for being different and instead judge them on the harm they put into this world. Our society is so fucked that we produce excess food just to take up space in stores. Every human being on the planet could live the idealized American middle class life on 30% of the global GDP. The only reason anyone is poor is because we let awful people make the rules.
Ok ok, youve turned the wrong alley, buddy. Im not judging the poor or the rich or anyone or having🤐🤐 any thoughts or/and opinions about how society should and shouldnt be. Like in the other replies I am just asking why is it that in case of wanting children (a luxary) the judgement is different than in case of wanting a nice car (also luxary, albeit, less expensive 🙂)
Luxury*
It’s genuinely insane that you consider reproducing a luxury. It’s a basic biological drive and something that can happen by accident. Yes it can be prevented, where legal, but people uncomfortable with getting an abortion shouldn’t be pressured into it. Also society relies on reproduction to a certain degree.
Another fucking fascist “just asking questions.”
Go back to Reddit.
Well, that’s not nice of you to call me that
It isn’t nice of you to post a bunch of troll questions.
Neither, I think it’s none of my business.
Trying to ascribe individual blame in a system as broken as our global economy is pointless; we live in the system and we are forced to survive in it. The best we can do is act to reduce suffering and strive to fix what is broken.
To that end, sympathy is an empty gesture. I empathize with them. Then I stock the local food bank so that they and their children can eat.
Well, charity is nice ofc, but don’t you think they should have put more thought before mindlessly making a baby?
That does not matter to me, personally, and I cannot generalize intelligence, decision-making validity, or the motives for having children based on need for food. What I will say is that people who come to food banks and pantries are human beings who do not deserve suffering when resources exist and the barrier to their survival is currency.
Both I guess. I can still sympathize with people who in my opinion have made poor life decisions.
From the people who brought you The Birthrate is Declining! and Abortion Murders Babies! comes the new blockbuster sensation Poor People Shouldn’t Reproduce!
Rated R for ridiculous.
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I never said that
I don’t believe you
ok
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I don’t see why someone choosing something suboptimal would mean I shouldn’t have sympathy for them. Regardless, what if having a child is their dream and they choose the sacrifice? Why not help them out?
By that logic I should be helped, because I want a ferarri 🤣. But only poor families are afforded the sympathy (at least that’s the sentiment people IRL seem to have)
I think you can see how having a child and wanting to live decently is different from wanting a luxury. Very often poor families are poor for circumstances out of their control that happened since the birth of the child, as well, like loss of job, inflation, or divorce.
I feel like you made this thread just to talk about how you don’t like poor families.
Nah, I don’t actually. How? Like come on, Im tired of pretending I do see it lol 🤣. How’s having a child that you KNOW is going to end up costing you about the same as said ferrari (or maybe a couple of mazdas or corolas or whatever, you get the point) over the span of you supporting him/her different from wanting to buy something.But I can’t just straight up say that IRL, for obvious reasons without peopls looking at me like Im crazy 😀
It’s because a baby is a person, and having one is a natural part of human life, whereas a ferrari is a luxury. Also, once you have a child you cannot get rid of it ethically, so the parents should be helped. The sympathy comes from “this person cannot live a dignified life because of situation”.
I also think that everything that is necessary for life should be free, so the idea that people don’t deserve a decent life for any reason or decision is foreign to me.
I don’t know how to explain to you that you should have empathy.
Well, so is wanting luxary. Like come on, would you drive a corola if you buying a ferrari was 0.1% of your yearly net income or whetver?
You WANT luxary, its just you can not AFFORD it. 🙂
Same with kids: you WANT them, you just can’t AFFORD them.
But in 1 case you “deserve” empathy and in another you “don’t”.
Or am I missing your interpretation of “a natural part of human life”? How’s wanting offspring is more “natural” than, say, wanting a box of cool lego or getting a nice figure (yeah, I’d like the government to subsidize my weight loss, like why not? What if I am miserable enough being fat)?🙂
It’s natural because we would all die if it weren’t, but you’re avoiding my main argument. I said that the sympathy comes from “this person cannot live a dignified life because of situation” and the situation being bringing another person into the world.
Your Ferrari analogy fails because in that case you want “luxury” but in the child case they already have a child but you can’t afford to live, instead of being able to live but not having a luxury they want. I would feel sympathy for someone who, say, bought a luxury then lost their job, and are now having a really hard time because they no longer have any savings.
Also, don’t you think it’s a bit sad that having children, something people have famously done since forever, is now something you can be priced out of? (Also where I live the government does subsidize weight loss, if it’s bad enough to really impact your life)
edit: lmao dude stopped responding the second someone made an argument he couldn’t just wave away with the same premade argument
- So your description of “natural” is “something we would die off without”? Ok. But that only makes sense on a populational level, an individual won’t die without producing offspring. And my question was specifically targeted at individual judgement. We aren’t a hivemind, you can act differently than the people around you.
- Like I said, any reasonable person understands that the possibility of life storms (such as being laid off, having health issues at some point in your life, child being born with disability) is the thing that should be accounted for. Otherwise… You haven’t thought that through, now have you 🙃?
🙂 And who is to blame for that? And if you believe in personal responsibility and freedom of will, shouldn’t it be treated like an unreasonable desicion then? Same way you treat eating at a fancy restaurant and then not having any money to eat for a week.
- What do you mean, “the situation”? It sounds like you’re suggesting that having a kid is something out of your control. Which it isn’t (unless you like believd in determinism or whetever, but we’ll just go with a mainstream belief that is that people can control their actions). You make it happen.
FFS it’s spelled “Luxury”
There it is. You have an agenda and want to shit on parents.
!childfree@lemmy.world would be a better fit for you.
Just you being outraged at the question doesn’t mean its not genuine 🙂 or trolling
Lol
I should be helped, because I want a ferarri
By your fucking stupid logic, and the fact that you want money, you should impregnate women who want children. That’s the stupidest argument I have read today.
But children are a luxary that people CHOOSE to have
I have been on 4chan way longer that you have been alive. Your shitty troll skills don’t affect me. Also learn to have some empathy, it helps.
Children are going to be made whether we can afford them or not. It’s our biological imperative. A small segment of the population at any given time can restrain these imperatives for more opportune moments or choose not to.
In that light, it’s best to just have sympathy for life and those who make it and respect those who do choose otherwise.
Also, shitty question. Instigating a bunch of finger-pointing and arguing with loaded questions is childish. Don’t do that here.
A genuine one tho. What deives people who KNOW they are going to go broke and struggle IF they make a child? What’s a “biological imperative”? Are you suggesting we are animals who cannot choose?
What I am suggesting is that there is something disingenuous about your posts. You’ve been here 4 days, have posted 4 topics, with one cross-posted, that seem written in a way to stir up arguments. You’ve made 30+ comments but none outside of your own topics.
Do you always join communities and immediately start posting provocative questions while ignoring all the other content?
What’s your purpose for being here in the fediverse?
Thats your assumption. I am just not interested enough in other people’s shit, thats all. Why would I be? 🙂 Is it a bad thing? I mind my own business and do my own thoughts
I mind my own business and do my own thoughts
This is clearly a lie.
But your answer tells us a lot more about your purpose than you probably meant to. If you came here with the intent to only interact in the topics you post, a narrative you’re crafting with the shape of the aggregate of questions, revolving around divisive social topics, then you’re not here to be a contributing member of a community but instead came with an agenda.
It doesnt really conclusively tell us that I have an agenda and I don’t
Sure it does. Did you forget that everyone can see your vote history?
I mind my own business
You’re weirdly fixated on wanting to blame people for having kids. That’s not even close to minding your own business.
Man, if you’re in the West, you’ve known people who can barely speak the language and still work full time or more and their kids are in school, have a roof over their heads and are eating well. They might not have the latest iPhone or go to Bali but still. It’s usually mental health issues (addictions included) or straight up selfishness what stops people from caring and providing for their children, from what I’ve seen.
People should be able to have kids. It’s a fundamental human right which has been systematically stripped from us by right-wing oligarchs and now left-wing fascists use it as an excuse to validate mass immigration. White people are being fucked from both ends of the political spectrum.
human right
seems like a belief of many people here. Ok
It depends. Education, situation, its not always cut and dry. Back in the nineties I knew a grandma who was talking about growing up down south and you kinda forget how not very long ago some stuff is. She was talking about how she was preganant before understanding where babies came from. She had be told the stork thing. We are talking a hundred years ago or so thought.
Well like I said here, we don’t take those cases into account. What drives people who do understand the consequences to do it and then complain?
Im not sure I ever met anyone in that situation honestly.
So there’s rarely an “We already live paycheck to paycheck” situation and its more often than not accidental pregnancies? I mean come on… Who the heck cannot afford condoms or birthcontrol? If you can’t then you probably shouldn’t be having sex in the first place, to be honest. Again, not like anybody’s forcing you (excluding rape)
again. education. upbringing. and just sensibleness. It reminds me a bit of a post a person had about people who were bad with money. Its like dude. Thats most people. Most people are not highly competent in all sorts of ways. Usually someone has some skil and ability with a few things at best. Think about everyone you went to high school with and people you have worked with if you have ever worked grunt work type jobs. Best we can do as a society is have good education and plenty of access to birth control. Giving it away a lot is a good thing. Even then though you are going to have it not work out for some. Just like we can never 100% get rid of homelessness you won’t 100% stop unwanted pregnancies.
Someone’s jealous that others are having sex while they’re trolling poorly on Lemmy hahahaha
Well, not nice, again
Is this your first day on the internet?
I can’t juat start calling you names and making fun of you becauase of the rules
There’s no right time to have a child, and generally younger is better (within reason). I don’t blame someone for having a kid at a bad time. I do blame someone continuing to have kids despite already struggling with the kids they have.
Well… My point kinda is. Should you? 🙂 Like at all? (if you can’t afford it)?
Your parents probably shouldn’t have.
This is related to consent. You are suggesting they consented to the existence of the child, thus are responsible for the results of that consent. This ignores the MANY people who did not consent, and ignores the many more who did not give INFORMED consent. You are wading into deeper waters than you might realise if you are going to argue either side of the question of whether consent requires the consenter to be informed.
Mentioned it in other replies, there are cases where adult people clearly do understand the consequences while not being forced into it by any 3rdparty. I exclude the cases where they are raped or uneducated
Can’t really blame them for that, since income can come and go for a variety of reasons.
What I do wish, however, is that people would be more cautious about having children. There are too many unprepared and unfit parents.
Those who are most unfit, don’t have the ability to reflect on their own fitness.
