I’ve seen several references to some sort of rift between the users of these instances today. What’s happening?
Obviously this is my opinion based off observations I’ve made, and not every user or sub in each instance falls under this generalization.
Both instances have a lot of users, and they have ideological differences, so they inevitably butt heads. Depending on who you ask, ML mainly has socialists, communists, or tankies. World seems to be more centrist leaning to the left, but it seems to be accepting of a more varied range of political opinions. Considering a lot of Lemmy users came from Reddit, I think a comparison can be drawn. My opinion is that World users have an ideology similar to most of Reddit and seem more likely to have left Reddit because they took issue with specific Reddit admin policies. On the other hand, ML users would have had an ideology that was more fringe for Reddit, and while they may have had issues with Reddit admins as well, they seem more likely to have left Reddit because their views were not well accepted among Reddit’s general population.
I signed up for the developer’s instance because fuck reddit, and I do dev work.
Server choice had nothing to do with any political shit. I barely knew what federation was at the time. Lemmy immediately proved there are as many bandwagoning idiots as reddit here.
I have nothing to say about world though, I don’t use the platform that much.
I just want to add to the discussion that I think it’s perfectly healthy if two instances don’t like each other and/or have different outlooks - it’s the beauty of the fediverse and having decentralisation that they don’t have to agree on everything.
ml and other tankie instances are actual cess pits of dangerous misinformation, delusion and abusive cult activity
actually bad for members and the wider world
Funny coming from a straight up pro-genocide Zionist.
But that’s exactly the kind of person .world will coddle to “own the commies”
Marxist-Leninists have a few takes that draw major friction between liberals who enjoy the idea of socialism/communism but haven’t really engaged with the theory and history of Marxism, such as:
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MLs strongly oppose the west, including Europe, as the imperial hegemony. Liberals tend to not see Europe as imperialist even if it relies on imperialism, so when an ML calls for abolishing NATO this can cause friction.
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MLs advocate for completely rejecting the DNC and GOP in the US, and instead running a working class party and organizing outside of the electoral system. Liberals tend to believe in voting for the DNC as “harm reduction,” but MLs look as the system itself and see the DNC as propping up the same imperialist system, necessitating working outside of this.
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Disagreements on Actually Existing Socialism. MLs tend to support existing socialist countries, and liberals tend not to. MLs typically take a non-western viewpoint on socialist countries, and tend to have studied Marxism more in-depth, while liberals tend to take the western viewpoint and not have studied Marxism very much. This causes more friction.
This is why MLs and liberals tend to clash. If you want to learn more about Marxism-Leninism, I made an intro reading list you can check out.
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The stereotype is that Lemmy.ml wants to play with Stalin’s balls. Lemmy.world wants to play with, I don’t know, Obama’s balls? With Bernie, Bill Clinton, and Reagan watching from the corner?
Something like that, anyway.
World is after ML for being Stalinists and ML is after World for not being Stalinists hah
Moral purity beatings will continue until morale improves.
Wouldn’t it be Leninists? Like the ‘l’ in ‘ml’?
No, Leninism is different. Marxism-Leninism specifically was a creation of Stalin.
Marxism–Leninism was developed from Bolshevism by Joseph Stalin in the 1920s based on his understanding and synthesis of classical Marxism and Leninism.
When talking about Stalinism people often means not just that ideology but also the brutal way it was implemented and how the country was ruled
Stalinism is the means of governing and Marxist–Leninist policies implemented in the Soviet Union (USSR) from 1927 to 1953 by Joseph Stalin. It included the creation of a one-party totalitarian police state, rapid industrialization, the theory of socialism in one country (until 1939), forced collectivization of agriculture, intensification of class conflict, a cult of personality,[1][2] and subordination of the interests of foreign communist parties to those of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, deemed by Stalinism to be the leading vanguard party of communist revolution at the time.
Marxism-Leninism was synthesized by Stalin, but like the name suggests, is over 90% Marx and Lenin. Stalinism is typically used coherently to describe the policies of the Stalin-Era of the USSR. Those calling Marxism-Leninism “Stalinism” typically are trying to use Stalin’s name as a way to bash Marx and Lenin’s theories and practice.
Here we go
?
Don’t worry about my guy
.world is full of apologists and denialists for western imperialism
.ml is full of tankies who think that ALL Americans are fascists (even those of us currently being terrorized by fascists).
FSM help you if you ever try to inject sanity into one of their “debates”
We don’t think every single statesian is a fascist, but we do recognize that much of the statesian public is fascist along with the state. The US is a settler-colony, after all.
Obviously I’m generalizing and don’t think everyone on either instance is such a simplistic thinker. But I’ve been on the receiving end of plenty of insults from .ml accounts implying that ALL Americans are indistinguishable from Jefferson Davis.
I genuinely have not seen that, perhaps we interpret the same comments different ways?
Perhaps.
Side note - you don’t deserve all this down voting. You’re engaging in good faith and making reasonable statements (more reasonable than my initial comment deserved, frankly). Its unfortunate that attempting to bring nuance to an online discussion usually results in hateful backlash. That’s not a .ml or .world problem. Just an Internet problem.
Thanks, but no worries, I’m used to it. I have some severely dedicated haters. I just wish that they would actually try to respond to what they downvote, rather than silently downvote, as there’s no learning process created by that. Or when they run off to anti-communist drama communities (usually removing vital context), rather than directly addressing what I have to say.
I have some severely dedicated haters
Then you must be doing something right.
I don’t like the line of logic that states “getting hate = correct,” but I do think people should have who their haters are be factored in. Many people are rightly hated, like Netanyahu, but largely by entirely reasonable people. I can’t say my haters are particularly reasonable.
But thanks for the compliment!
Almost no one is apologizing for what the west does. We just can’t see any difference between china and the west when it comes to imperialism. Tibet comes to mind and the fact they want to pick the next dali lama. Like its their imperialists right. They have done the same things that the west has done and done them in this century. Tankies just insist on their lies knowing what they say isn’t true.
The PRC isn’t imperialist, though. For example, BRI isn’t imperialist, because it results in mutual development. Where the west goes in and plunders and underdevelops the global south, countries in BRI see rising wages and industrialization, escaping the endless trap of imperialism. Does China benefit too? Absolutely. Is it imperialism? No. Here are some good articles:
Instead, Imperialism is characterized by the following:
-The presence of monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life.
-The merging of bank capital with industrial capital into finance capital controlled by a financial oligarchy.
-The export of capital as distinguished from the simple export of commodities.
-The formation of international monopolist capitalist associations (cartels) and multinational corporations.
-The domination and exploitation of other countries by militaristic imperialist powers, now through neocolonialism.
-The territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers.
The global north, Europe and the US included, uses this export of capital to super-exploit foreign labor for super-profits. It also engages in unequal exchange, where the global south is prevented from moving up the value chain in production, allowing the global north to charge monopoly prices for commodities produced in the same labor hours.
The point I am making isn’t simply about land conquering, but an ongoing process of shifting surplus value and resources from the imperialized to the core. Finance capital is the primary mechanism by which this functions.
As for Tibet, Tibet was a feudal slave society backed by the CIA. The PLA liberated Tibet.
Two exerpts from Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth:
CW: descriptions of torture
Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. The wealth of the monasteries rested in the hands of small numbers of high-ranking lamas. Most ordinary monks lived modestly and had no direct access to great wealth. The Dalai Lama himself “lived richly in the 1000-room, 14-story Potala Palace.” [12]
Secular leaders also did well. A notable example was the commander-in-chief of the Tibetan army, a member of the Dalai Lama’s lay Cabinet, who owned 4,000 square kilometers of land and 3,500 serfs. [13] Old Tibet has been misrepresented by some Western admirers as “a nation that required no police force because its people voluntarily observed the laws of karma.” [14] In fact it had a professional army, albeit a small one, that served mainly as a gendarmerie for the landlords to keep order, protect their property, and hunt down runaway serfs.
Young Tibetan boys were regularly taken from their peasant families and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there, they were bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeatedremoved, beginning at age nine. [15] The monastic estates also conscripted children for lifelong servitude as domestics, dance performers, and soldiers.
In old Tibet there were small numbers of farmers who subsisted as a kind of free peasantry, and perhaps an additional 10,000 people who composed the “middle-class” families of merchants, shopkeepers, and small traders. Thousands of others were beggars. There also were slaves, usually domestic servants, who owned nothing. Their offspring were born into slavery. [16] The majority of the rural population were serfs. Treated little better than slaves, the serfs went without schooling or medical care. They were under a lifetime bond to work the lord’s land — or the monastery’s land — without pay, to repair the lord’s houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood. They were also expected to provide carrying animals and transportation on demand. [17] Their masters told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. And they might easily be separated from their families should their owners lease them out to work in a distant location. [18]
As in a free labor system and unlike slavery, the overlords had no responsibility for the serf’s maintenance and no direct interest in his or her survival as an expensive piece of property. The serfs had to support themselves. Yet as in a slave system, they were bound to their masters, guaranteeing a fixed and permanent workforce that could neither organize nor strike nor freely depart as might laborers in a market context. The overlords had the best of both worlds.
One 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf, reports: “Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished”; they “were just slaves without rights.” [19] Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture those who tried to flee. One 24-year old runaway welcomed the Chinese intervention as a “liberation.” He testified that under serfdom he was subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord’s men until blood poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic soda on his wounds to increase the pain, he claimed. [20]
The serfs were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. They were taxed for religious festivals and for public dancing and drumming, for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being cast into slavery. [21]
The theocracy’s religious teachings buttressed its class order. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as a karmic atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve in their next lifetime. The rich and powerful treated their good fortune as a reward for, and tangible evidence of, virtue in past and present lives.
Selection two, shorter: (CW sexual violence and mutilation)
The Tibetan serfs were something more than superstitious victims, blind to their own oppression. As we have seen, some ran away; others openly resisted, sometimes suffering dire consequences. In feudal Tibet, torture and mutilation — including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation — were favored punishments inflicted upon thieves, and runaway or resistant serfs. [22]
Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: “When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion.” [23] Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then “left to God” in the freezing night to die. “The parallels between Tibet and medieval Europe are striking,” concludes Tom Grunfeld in his book on Tibet. [24]
In 1959, Anna Louise Strong visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, gouging out eyes, breaking off hands, and hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disemboweling. The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master’s cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who wasremovedd and then had her nose sliced away. [25]
-Dr. Michael Parenti
Tibet is no longer under such a tortured regime, and has since seen skyrocketing quality of life metrics like life expectancy, industrialization, and more. The west uses the narrative of “oppression” as though the working classes of Tibet want to return to such brutal conditions, but in reality it’s the former aristocracy and the Dalai Lama that wish to return to their positions as a ruling class.
ML is run by people who are not only communist, but also communists can do no wrong, capitalists can do no right. Just being communist most of us could live with, but the second is a problem. When someone cannot agree things like genocides that various communist governments are a bad it is really hard to have productive conversations.
yes. the openly call for murder, theft, and various form of violence against their ‘enemies’.
and if you suggest maybe that’s not such a great idea, they basically tell you that you should die too.
But on the other hand, perhaps I should smile more, even as I am being murdered? (Dials gaslighting up to 11) Yes, it is surely I who am in the wrong here, rather than them.
(/s in case it is not abundantly clear)
communistsTankies.Authoritarians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
Tankie is a pejorative label generally applied to authoritarian communists, especially those who support or defend acts of repression by such regimes, their allies, or deny the occurrence of the events thereof.
Capitalists use fascism to defend democracy from communism.
They do.
Communists don’t have to lie or censor others to get their point across.
Just tell the truth and more people would be sympathetic to their cause.
History shows that simply telling the truth isn’t actually convincing for those who choose not to be open to new ideas. We all do this, none of us are immune, but only those with class interests aligned with communism tend to be open to new information challenging liberal mainstream perception.
Lol, history has not shown that.
If you honestly believe that lying is going to recruit more people to your cause, then keep doing that and see how it works out for you.
The present is telling you that it’s not working.
I can’t believe anyone on the Internet is naive enough to believe that just being given factual information is enough to make people change their mind. How could you think that is true when you know, everything? Also who could doubt the power of propaganda?
I’m pretty sure they were just taking a knee-jerk reaction deliberately. I could have said I think puppies are cute and they would have accused me of animal abuse.
I don’t even mind communists, it’s tankies I hate
And tankies love fascism as long as it’s used against capitalism
Can be wrong about it, but a noticeable percentage of Lemmy.ml comunities and users are totally normal. The real issue is in a few admins and mods that flood the instance with delusional pro-Russian propaganda, love to USSR, Lenin and etc. And strictly removing anyone who is against it. Thus leaving on instance only people that support this propaganda and the ones who don’t protest against it. This creates a concentrated userbase with ideology and mindset unacceptable for a huge part of Lemmy.world userbase.
So, in conclusion, battle between Lemmy.ml and Lemmy.world is mostly because of politics and ideologies.
Documentation of the admins authoritarianism and censorship
Some highlights from the link:
“If you don’t support Russia then you just don’t understand geopolitics” ~dessalines, main .ml admin, head dev https://lemmy.world/post/27352415
“See! nobody died IN Tiananmen Square, just AROUND it, so it doesn’t count!!” ~ Davel, .ml admin https://lemmy.world/post/30673342
“NK is actually good and anything counter to that is Western propaganda!” ~dessalines, main .ml admin, head dev https://lemmy.world/post/31595035
Showing support for Ukraine on .ml is worthy of a site ban - dessalines, main .ml admin, head dev https://lemmy.world/post/32775563
Nutomics continued transphobia https://lemmy.world/post/29222558
Liberals and communists hate each other, that’s pretty much it
It’s the authoritarian part LW disagrees with. I think the .world admins would have long defederated ML, but since the lemmy coders are situated on .ML, thats not such an attractive option. Desalines and Nutomic are hardcore tankies and bigots, which crush any dissenting voice on .ml. Even worse, if you want to support lemmy development, the finances of .ml and development budget are intertwined, so every donation for lemmy also supports tankies. It’s the reason i switched to piefed,
If you want examples of how those two run their digital kingdom, take a look at !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works - most posts are about .ml.
MeanwhileOnGrad is run by a Zionist, and the comm itself serves as a bit of a Nazi bar. Many of the posts also erase vital context, or otherwise misframe users.
Lol, of course the place that stands to document y’alls crap gets slanderd by the people it’s documenting
Literally authoritarian 101 lmao
The “tankies” have the same platform as pretty much every real life communist organisation, lemmy.worlders have the same platform as your generic European social democratic party.
I’d have more respect for people just admitting that they’re anti-communist rather than trying to redefine and obfuscate the meaning of the word.
No they don’t, apart from edgy internet leftists who haven’t studied any political theory outside of their sheltered internet canon. The modern internationale, Jacobin, etc, actively avoid the idiotic campism and autocratic baggage the tankies cling to as they relitigate the cold war. There has been a century of revisionist leftist theory since Lenin’s “theory” about how everything Lenin does is great even if it is transparently hypocritical. Most of the leftist world has moved on, but tankies still live on that mountain.
This absolutely reeks of western exceptionalism. The “leftist world” is far more than what social democrats in Europe and North America think. Communists in the global south aren’t going to be lectured by people from wealthy imperial core countries on what the correct kind of leftism is.
There is still a very deep colonialist mindset here, and one that won’t be found amongst actual communist orgs that are politically active.
The absolute gorgeous irony of MLs saying they don’t want to be lectured about politics.
But hey, I’m not your psychiatrist, so if you want to maintain this delusion that ML orthodoxy represents some singular, uncorrupted ideal which actually holds any relevant influence anywhere in the world, then by no means will I interfere with your monumental significance.
I’m not an ML, but go ahead. You have no point to make either way.
It’s not even that. The specific brand of “communist” the ML admins stan is really just redfash, so all other leftists despise them, even as they insist their 100 year old dogma is the only correct philosophy.
It’s also not just that. Dessalines and Nutomic are just basic fucking assholes. Petty and power hungry, and occasionally transphobic, they spend more time banning users and making drama for stupid shit, than they spend writing code, and then have the audacity to guilt people for money.
Dessalines in particular is so fucking cringe, he literally will not post outside of his shitty little fiefdom, because he cannot handle any internet where he doesn’t have his little “I win” ban button.
ML users aren’t really communists though - they are leftist MAGAs who believe in alternative facts, only paying lip service to communist principles but not in a genuine manner. i.e. tankies.
OpenStars spewing bullshit once more, shocker
You guys ever notice how the .ml crowd comes out in droves to defend each other?
They probably have a discord where they coordinate actions so that none of them have to defend their cult alone.
It’s pretty sad.
It’s matrix actually, but it’s been brought up before, some of the more prominent tankies all have a collab document that they copy/paste from
anticommunism, basically.
Long-standing political differences and an extremely censorious moderation philosophy on Lemmy.ml means there is always tension. I’m not aware of any specific thing that has happened recently though.
I’m not sure if there’s anything new, just seems to be the standard liberal/leftist beef.
Is that really how you view this? I don’t want to start a big argument but I don’t find that summary accurate at all.
Yes, generally. I can be more specific and say “western progressive/Marxist” beef, ie beef between western progressives and Marxists, but that beef is also just generally the liberal/leftist beef.
I’m not really looking for a fight, either, nor an argument. I generally value productive dialogue, but often that gets shut down by people that don’t want that, so it spirals into arguments. See this “exchange” as an example.
I know you are usually polite which I appreciate. But I gotta say it’s not how I would frame it. More like MLs vs. the world. Plenty of leftists on the outside here.
I wish I could engage in debate on Lemmy.ml but the censorship makes it impossible. I used to learn things from you guys but now I just avoid all those spaces because it’s impossible to have a real conversation if you don’t 100% agree with Dessalines on every single issue. I don’t understand how anyone finds that tolerable.
but the censorship makes it impossible.
the vast majority of the time I look into the supposed censorship on .ml it’s someone being bigoted or insulting the person they’re responding to
If people are being bigoted, xenophobic, insulting people, while also badmouthing US state enemies they’ll tend to get banned for their bigotry/xenophobia and then go and cry about how their unique individual opinion was censored.
Yeah because mods there consider any criticism of your ideas or allied governments “bigotry”. It’s absurd. I can only assume from this comment that you share this view.
It’s the exact same logic zionists use to shield Israel from criticism.
In my experience, the ones that get truly censored are the ones that either are insistent on repeating outright misinformation, or genuinely break the rules via ableism, racism, homophobia, etc. I speak with plenty of people that disagree with me on Lemmy.ml, and they usually only get temp-banned if they do one of those things. Permabanning is more for repeat offenses.
As for it being MLs vs. the world, that really isn’t my experience either. I organize in real life with people that don’t align with me 100% all the time, and when I’m on Hexbear I obviously get along with Maoists, anarchists, etc. as well. The source of major beef between lemmy.world specifically and Lemmy.ml specifically is as I said, western progressive liberal vs. Marxists, or even more generally liberal vs. leftist.
If there’s something you’re interested in discussing, I’m fine to do so, but I don’t normally like engaging in spaces that defederate from Hex and Grad, ie apply a blanket firewall against the majority of Marxists on Lemmy. Discussion in non-Marxist spaces, where the majority of commenters are insulated from Marxists, usually results in the kind of slapfighting you see all over this thread over real conversation.
In spaces that actually allow strong Marxist participation, discussion around Marxism is more intricate, such as this conversation about the subject of “Dengism” I had with someone more critical of China over on Lemmygrad. This is just one example, but it isn’t just a one-sided censorship campaign. I have been permabanned from Political Memes for pointing out the DNC’s participation in the Palestinian genocide, and from every comm PugJesus moderates because they lost an argument in an unrelated comm. I’m banned from Memes of Production for “voting while tankie,” because Deceptichum defended Hungarian Nazis for opposing the soviets. It’s tiring.
All in all, I mean this to say that discussion goes both ways, and it isn’t simply because Lemmy.ml unilaterally censors.
there was a big post yesterday about ‘rent is theft’ that had 100s of comments, that was mostly .world vs .ml users.
the .ml users basically harassed and threatened the .world users who were talking about reasonable reforms on housing prices and the causes for housing price inflation. .ml users think if you talk about facts and reality you are part of the problem and that reality should be re-made such that private property no longer exists and every single person should leave in the same concrete housing blocks like they had in the USSR, or they should be shot.
I mean, if they all want to move to Russia or North Korea or China, go right ahead, I am not stopping anyone from chasing their bliss. Perhaps I should note that they will end up as fodder for a warlord’s lust for conquest, but at the end of the day that is not my call to make as to what to do with your lives.
But damnit I would like to have some tint amount of control about what to do with my own! Including the ability to block them, if I happen to want that. I almost left Lemmy over precisely this issue, preferring instead to simply read books offline than to have to wade through endless immature eternity of September crap. Fortunately, that’s exactly when PieFed started coming up, offering an alternative besides Mbin, and which now offers a heck of a lot more features than either of them.
“you don’t like it, leave”
you sound like pretty much every conservative I’ve interacted with.
Naa we’re just tired of you tankies spewing authoritarian propaganda… you’re just maga’s that wear hammer and sickle patches.
I’m an anarchist, these days ‘tankie’ is just an epithet used by campist liberals towards ‘disloyal’ communists and anarchists at home.
There’s a twisted irony that the so-called’tankies’ are the ones most opposed to america sending in the tanks
No…no it’s not. You tankies are called that because you eat propaganda from authoritarian regimes in the name of communism. You’re just maga with a hammer and sickle logo
You’re just maga with a hammer and sickle logo
Literally a straw person you’ve made up and are attacking.
you eat propaganda from authoritarian regimes
I evaluate all propaganda critically, be it from the authoritarian regime i live in (the US), or some other one
Tbh the closest thing to behaving like MAGA is you, more of a blue MAGA
Pretty sure an anarchist is not thrilled with authoritarianism even if communist
My only issue with .ml that it’s pretty much lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net in disguise. They are simply not being honest about who the instance is for.
Don’t misunderstand. I don’t have anything against any of them, but they should really just be honest who lemmy.ml is for. Just like lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net is.
Lemmygrad.ml first rule is: No capitalist apologia / anti-communism.
This is pretty much a hidden rule on Lemmy.ml.
I remember a long time ago when Nutomic was hosting peertube.social. There, the rules was very honest and you knew what you signed up for in the instance. So why not just do that now as well?
Hint: look at Dessalines modlog
Hint: look at Dessalines modlog
ML is run by heavily-indoctrinated communists. They’re the type that straight up worship communist leaders.
lemmy.world is kind of run by pussies. They blocked the piracy sublemmy for no real reason other than that.
It doesn’t surprise me they are butting heads. Hopefully the instances that allow interaction with both instances triumph over those that try to restrict access.
They’re the type that straight up worship communist leaders.
I wouldn’t phrase it at that. They’re fans of Russia, China, Iran, and pretty much any other country that’s antagonistic to the US. This regardless of whether said state is communist, especially Russia, which has become fascist under Putin’s rule.
In short, the .ml owners are tankies
If you disagree that .ml are communist and insist that they’re “tankies” instead, it seems to imply that not all communists are “tankies.” However, every single communist I’m aware of is called a tankie. What does a communist who isn’t a tankie look like? Are there examples of such a thing?
Are you saying communism necessarily implies authoritarianism? What about anarchists?
The anarchist conception of communism is more like communalism, while the Marxist conception is more like collectivism. When I say “communalization,” I mean anarchists propose horizontalist, decentralized cells, similar to early humanity’s cooperative production but with more interconnection and modern tech. When I say collectivization, I mean the unification of all of humanity into one system, where production and distribution is planned collectively to satisfy the needs of everyone as best as possible.
For anarchists, collectivized society still seems to retain the state, as some anarchists conflate administration with the state as it represents a hierarchy. For Marxists, this focus on communalism creates inter-cell class distinctions, as each cell only truly owns their own means of production, giving rise to class distinctions and thus states in the future.
For Marxists, socialism must have a state, a state can only wither with respect to how far along it has come in collectivizing production and therefore eliminating class. All states are authoritarian, but we cannot get rid of the state without erasing the foundations of the state: class society, and to do so we must collectivize production and distribution globally. Socialist states, where the working class wields its authority against capitalists and fascists, are the means by which this collectivization can actually happen, and are fully in-line with Marx’s beliefs. Communism as a stateless, classless, moneyless society is only possible post-socialism.
Abolishing the state overnight would not create the kind of society Marxists advocate for advancing towards, and if anything, would result in the resumption of competition and the resurgance of capitalism if Marx and Engels predictions are correct.
None of this was specific to Marxism-Leninism, but Marxism in general. In this sense, Marxist communism does believe in using state authority to oppress the bourgeousie and reactionaries, just like capitalists use the state to oppress the working classes and revolutionaries. The major difference is that socialist states are working class authorities, not owning class, and as such the class interest points to negating class and therefore the basis of the state. This is why dialectical materialism is core to Marxism.
We live in a dictatorship of capital, you’re not going to be able to get consent from capitalists to overthrow them.
If you’re intersted in revolutionary change you’re going to be authoritarian to someone. The capitalists not going to be on board for getting their property redistributed.
If you’re not interested in revolution you’re the compatible left
Are you seriously conflating communism with authoritarianism?
It’s like you guys went through the red scare and instead of figuring it was a stupid insane witch hunt without any real foundation, decided that the republican definition of “communism = evil” was actually true, but you wanted in anyway. It’s ridiculous.
It’s such an irony to me that people who call us “tankies” and say that we are somehow caricatures of communists, always make such caricatures out of themselves. Like, instead of engaging with any of FunkyStuff’s very reasonable, calmly stated questions, you go off about how we (“tankies”) just decided to be evil, and calling us ridiculous while behaving in such a ridiculous, blatantly and needlessly antagonistic way yourself. It’s over the top.
Paraphrasing:
FunkyStuff: asks a calm, concise series of questions that are meant to help clarify the issue.
lunnrais: “See?! Look how frothing these evil, ridiculous lunatic tankies are!!”And this after correctly recognizing that the red scare was a terrible witch hunt? But it was people like us, people who believe what we believe, that were the “witches” of that particular persecution. We are simply what most communists in the world look like, we believe what most communists in the world believe, people who have very clear and consistent views. But instead of honestly trying to engage or actually understand why “tankies” believe the things they do, you just smear us with lies and pretend that the position of Marxist-Leninist communists is just some bananas, made-up-on-the-fly, contrarian position, rather than one with deep foundations that have been developed over decades of intense thought and practice including by people fighting in the trenches for their own and others liberation. To you, were the Black Panthers “tankies”? Do you know about their mutual support of and with North Korea, or did they just decide to be “evil” to pwn the libs? Was Che Guevara a “tankie”? Is Michael Parenti? Were they all just ridiculous contrarians who liked the picture that reactionaries (“republicans”) painted of them?
I remain at the same place, yet to understand how one can be a communist and not authoritarian. And I feel like you’re failing to interrogate whether your concept of authoritarianism is being used with any amount of consistency or if it’s just a club you wield against people who have positions you disagree with for other reasons.
I remain at the same place, yet to understand how one can be a communist and not authoritarian.
I think you maybe need to read a book then. Try starting with “The Communist Manifesto”
Will do!
When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.
In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.
Another fun quote, though not from the manifesto:
We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.
OK, so maybe you don’t know what “authoritarian” means? Because,
In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.
Is not it.
Edit: A period of time where the proletariat organizes power to eliminate the bourgeoisie in order to get rid of those previous class divides, is not authoritarianism.
MLs aren’t “fans” of Russia or Iran, but value their geopolitical opposition to the west, the imperialist hegemony. MLs do tend to be fans of the PRC, as it’s a socialist country. The idea that a country has to be 100% ideologically aligned in order to get even critical support from a communist just plays into the idea that communists are obsessed with purity testing, but that’s not the case.
Supporting communists is not the same as worship. The devs and mods are certainly ideologically committed, but not out of sheer blind religious adherance.
Right. You guys don’t just “support” communists; you worship them.
No? I’m a communist, and I support communism. Worship has nothing to do with it. Can you explain what you mean by that?
If you’re truly clueless and not just feigning ignorance, then head on over to !worldnews@lemmy.ml and say something critical of a communist leader.
See how quickly you get banned.
You are feigning ignorance though because that’s how indoctrinated you are.
I’ve been critical of communists and communist leaders before, I think you’re confusing disinformation being removed with any and all critique being removed. Critique based on disinformation isn’t valid critique.
Sure you did. You’re going to say whatever you think will defend your indoctrination.
That’s how this works.
Anyone with a brain can look at the lemmy.ml modlog to see for themselves that you’re full of shit.
I’ve mentioned that the PRC is lacking in LGBTQIA+ rights (though they are improving), that population transfer in the soviet union was one of its worst crimes, that Stalin’s homophobia was deeply reactionary, that I’d prefer if the PRC was more millitantly anti-imperialist than they are presently, that revisionism and mismanagement began a trend of liberalization in the USSR that contributed to its collapse, that the PRC made a huge error in backing Cambodia against Vietnam, and much more than this.
I’m not “indoctrinated,” and anyond can look at the Lemmy.ml modlog to see for themselves that you’re full of shit.
Maybe you weren’t banned because you wre from .ml they have banned me on an alt account for expressing my opinion that soviet occupation didn’t help my country.
Modlog link? I maintain that critique based on disinformation isn’t valid critique, so it depends on what you said.
ML is run by heavily-indoctrinated communists. They’re the type that straight up worship communist leaders.
It’s run by Russia bots who are pumping out Kremlin talking points whilst deleting anyone who is critical.
I got deleted for pointing out Putin runs a mafia state.
Shit even the Russian communist don’t like Putin.
I got deleted for pointing out Putin runs a mafia state.
From checking the modlog you got a comment removed and a temp ban for insulting someone
Is it an insult against Putin to declare he is running a mafia state?
1·14 days agoWhere do you dumb fucks get this shit from?
Keep on making shit up you dumb ass.
Modlog strikes again.
Every time.
*Clutches pearls*
