So what use would a private citizen or business have for a system like this? I’m not sure who the “commercial offerings” are meant for.
ITT: A bunch of people who think they know a lot about radar, expect to run their own radar at home, and think they can do it better for cheaper.
Look, if I could point this thing at the ground and get soil moisture at depth, I wouldn’t be in this situation ok.
Now do the Internet please.
Seems really cool but I’ll need to read more on this! I dont fully get it
Ukraine: “Write that down! WRITE THAT DOWN!”
This doesn’t have any practical application in Ukraine.
Ukraine detects FPV drones with numerous distributed and networked microphone/acoustic sensors. You’re not going to get any cheaper than a used phone paired with a $2 USB solar panel.
The larger Shahed/Geran and above stuff isn’t limited by radar detection. What they need are cheap interceptors to deal with swarm attacks.
Radars are very much in use in Ukraine. There is a whole range of air targets besides FPV drones, there are ballistic missiles, fighter planes, bomber planes, helicopters, gliding bombs, and ships, all of which require a radar to detect.
Acoustic sensors have limited range. By the time it detects a missile, it’s already flew one kilometer away, and it’s too late to grab your AA gun. Gliding bombs are silent.
Radars have 50+ km range, and allow to shoot bombers and ships from beyond the border with expensive US-provided missiles.
If you crack the combination of “actually cheap” and “reliable interceptor”, the US military industrial complex is going to build you your very own Scrooge vault.
“actually cheap” and “reliable interceptor”, the US military industrial complex
This is antithetical to the US military industrial contractor complex doctrine.
And then defense contractors will sell it to the government for a 10,000% markup.
But in all reality they would steal it after the inventor commits suicide with 2 rounds to the back of the head
This doesn’t have any practical application in Ukraine.
How can you be so dismissive? Of course it has practical application in Ukraine.
Game changer. This is going to save me so much on my monthly radar bills.
You’re lucky to have that. My radar has ads.
“You’ve reached your monthly tracking limit. To track additional targets, please upgrade to the Defense+ plan.”
My German U-boat neighbors are seething right now.
Commercial radar companies HATE this one simple trick.
The sonar git is still private.
There are companies that offer RaaS, basically radar rentals.
Source: my company had a customer who rented a weather radar for a year to do a study on weather patterns in South America
But 12’500 is still much.
250,000. WTF….
You can by a Garmin boat Radar for 10-15K that has a 100 mile range…
What is the point of this mess.
This is a phased array radar system, which is significantly different than the mechanical radars used by boats/ships. A phased array system typically supports near real time tracking of multiple targets since the radar signals are controlled through solid state beam steering.
Mechanical radars like those on boats can only update targets as quickly as the antenna rotates, which can be as slow as 20 RPM for some consumer brands. They are very different beasts. Comparing the two is like comparing a car to a train…
That’s a good comparison. I assume you’re saying that a car is like a mechanical radar and a train is the phased array, right?
But if you centipede cars they become a train.
Kind of like how if you take a bunch of traditional radar systems, sync their LOs, and add some DSP, you get a phased array. Pretty good analogy, actually.
Corruption. Soviet corruption was taking funds intended to buy x of y, priced at the cost of materials + labour + logistics for making x of y and delivering it to where it needs to be, but instead only buying (x - z) of y and pocketing the difference, but writing down that x were delivered, expecting that they’d just sit in storage anyways and by the time anyone figures it out, time, apathy, and incompetence will help avoid consequences.
Western corruption is starting a company to produce y and when a government orders x of them, x are delivered but are priced at the highest price the company can negotiate, possibly while the other side of the negotiation is feeding them info for a tiny portion of the money saved (or more likely less direct kickbacks, like the promise of a job offer after they finish their government position). All x of y get delivered but the price is significantly higher than what it costs to produce them.
Also R&D is priced in because it’s all done for the sake of making profit and must be recovered through the unit sales.
Western corruption is starting a company to produce y and when a government orders x of them, x are delivered
Well… not always.
and
Broken Boeing airplanes are going to the military thanks to corruption and bad decisions
Increasingly, the US model for contracting is to take money, outsource the work to a bunch of bargain basement contractors, pocket the profits, and then fail to deliver the end product.
Also R&D is priced in because it’s all done for the sake of making profit and must be recovered through the unit sales.
Again, this is something of an open question. The engineering of a given retailed unit is priced in as part of the unit rate. But the bluesky R&D is, as often as not, performed at the university level and then arbitraged through the private sector or simply stolen from rival militaries / companies / individuals through espionage and laundered through the private sector.
The Octopus Murders, on Netflix, tackles the anatomy of this kind of government-backed swindle with regard to the development of early iteration database technology.
The real difference between more Socialist/Communist models of corruption and the Western Capitalist style tends to be in the legal canonization of the corrupt practices. You really got to see this in the post-Soviet liberalization of Eastern European economies, as mafia cartels were supercharged by western financialization and eventually subsumed the entire federal apparatus of ex-Soviet states. What was considered a criminal black market prior to 1991 became the standard for managing the economy a decade later.
A long time ago in my country there was a minor scandal with a mid-level government employee sending about $1 million dollars to an obviously fake firm to purchase equipment. The website was made earlier in the year. The site was a thin veneer, with a few incomplete product documents.
The money was never recovered. Nobody was ever held responsible. A million dollars of tax payer money disappeared into somebody’s pocket just like that.
by coupling this with the open source stinger project i saw last month do i suddenly have my own patriot defense system?
Nah, that missile was visual tracking. Not radar guided. Also, way too small to intercept anything going high and fast which is generally what the patriot is for. Intercepting an aircraft requires a really powerful motor to give it enough speed and altitude to catch a plane.
This radar could maybe be used with a semi active radar guided missile, where the ground radar lights up the target and the missile just has a detector that homes in on that, which is what early patriots used. But it’s only got a 20km range which isn’t really enough for an anti aircraft system, unless all you’re worried about is something slow and low to the ground like a helicopter or cesna. Need enough time for the radar to detect, identify and lock the target, fire the missile, and have it track to the target, and something moving fast and high will be in and out of the range of the radar before all that can be done. Especially if the target is high up at 10km, which would half the effective range.
Would a network of multiple of this device with overlapping coverage work?
Not even close, both of these projects are wildly deficient for that kind of use and the effort required to solve those deficiencies would at least 10x if not 20x the cost.
That doesn’t mean they are useless, I can definitely see some eyebrow raising asymmetric possibilities.
If you’re seriously interested in this DIY Radar System I strongly suggest you grab a full copy from Github and put it on local storage as I doubt it’s going to remain up for long.
Interestingly enough, this project was originally licensed under the MIT license, but Motti was advised that said license does not protect physical hardware, so it changed to the CERN-OHL-PT license. Should you elect to build your own unit, be aware that the frequencies it operates in are almost assuredly highly regulated in your legal jurisdiction.
Also be aware of anti radiation munitions if you decide to operate one of these in a warzone. Radarmen have very short battlefield lifetimes because turning on a radar without lots of electronic countermeasures (hell even with countermeasures) is basically like turning on a spotlight that says “blow me up”.
So, one of the really interesting things to me about this approach is that it offers the same asymmetric value proposition that cheap attack drones do to modern pre-drone IADS.
That is: this is a platform that costs 10-15k, and an AGM-88 of modern manufacture costs almost 900k, and a Kh-31 costs about 550k - and, just as importantly, both require a long time to manufacture. So, you could theoretically make a moderately large distributed array sprinkled over a few square kilometers, and even if they’re ALL turned on, it quickly becomes logistically infeasible to knock them all out without spending a silly quantity on antirad munitions, as well as massively attriting your stocks of antirad munitions. And if you turn like 10-25% of them on at a time and cycle through your array, the problem becomes even harder for the attacker. And if you have some sort of process or mechanism - like, oh I don’t know, figuring out how to do light aerial transport with cargo drones, or even figuring out how to mount these distributed array nodes on the drones themselves, and some sort of lightweight tether for providing power - the problem becomes a MASSIVE pain in the ass for an adversary (especially that last idea, which introduces z-axis and immediate maneuverability, such that the array could feasibly detect and altogether avoid an incoming antirad munition).
And that’s the paradigm of modern warfare - not just drones, but also networked and attritable systems that maintain functionality when elements are taken offline
adding to this. I imagine that the emitter by itself costs a fraction, so set-up a huge array of these dumb emitters, and a few active systems randomly within that array. You’d essentially create an interdiction zone.
That’s just not how phased array systems work. The system we’re talking about needs to have excruciatingly tight and correct timings regarding signal transmission and reception. These are beam forming systems, so a multidimensional array of antenna are using to steer the beam, using constructive and destructive interference to “point” the energy where you want it to go. That alone requires extremely tight timing. That’s coupled with a phased array receiver system, so that you can detect very slight changes in the wavelength/ speed of the return signal to apply the doplar effect to detect things like motion. The github states that this system operates at 10.5 GHz, of which one RF cycle is about 95 ps, ~2.5cm. This puts the practical per-element beamforming granularity/error budget is very much in that sub-picosecond to picosecond-equivalent range. That would be practically impossible for anything but a coupled system.
Not completely impossible, I mean, probably US military systems exist in a decoupled system. But its technologically way, way way harder because timings need to be nano to pico second correct.
You’d end up jamming yourself. You can’t really have radars or other strong electromagnetic warfare devices near each other operating on the same frequency since they tend to interfere and wash out each other’s signals.
As a decoy makes sense though since you can send them far away on a drone or something.
You can if they’re all synced up together
I think this is just the wrong intuition. Not a faulty one, but one which is mostly the same as the doctrine which is being exposed as entirely ineffective.
US military doctrine is the “towards complexity” doctrine such that your opponent also needs to follow you into complexity. This worked for the US in the post WWII era because it was coupled with an exponentially increasing economic output.
Whats being show, as doctrine, is “away from complexity” and “towards distributed” approach to warfighting ends up being far more effective.
So coming from, practically, 100 years of “more advanced more complicated technology and approaches are better” being doctrine, its understandable to want to add complexity to systems.
Unless I’m missing something in your plan i don’t think that would work well. If these radar stations aren’t surrounded by very serious defensive systems for hundreds of miles in every direction, then they’ll simply be blown up by dumb howitzer shells that only cost around 2000 dollars.
Howitzers are cheap, relatively long range, mobile, and accurate enough. If you don’t have strong enough defenses to prevent the howitzers from moving into range, then they’ll just blow up all your radar stations with cheap shells.
The locating them is the problem I think
Locating the radar base station? No that’s the easiest part. Radar is like turning on a Hollywood style searchlight pointing up into the sky. The instant you turn it on its extremely obvious where the radar searchlight is coming from
Yeah I should correct myself
Finding them isn’t the hard part you are right. Finding a spot that you can shoot them from without being exposed yourself is the hard part. The range on an unguided howitzer is much less than radar, and the guided ones are more than $20,000 and the accurate range is not much longer than the cheap radar.
Locating radar emissions is a passive process, it doesn’t reveal your own location. That’s why i said the radar array would have to have very strong defenses extending out 30 km in all 360 degree directions from each individual radar station. And if a group has that strong a level of military equipment already then i don’t see why they would need this huge redundant array of radar stations all concentrated in a small area.
And locating radar emissions is a passive process, it doesn’t reveal your own location
That depends very much so on the radar system. In practical terms, almost all the radar systems we’re discussing here are going to be both transmitter and receiver in one design. You can’t simply rely on passive radio energy to detect moving objects in a complex environment. You would want both passive and active beam forming in one instrument; not having both is just leaving some of the most valuable developments in modern radar on the table.
And the specific radar we’re discussing, is an active, pulsed LFM phased-array radar. It does both, because, obviously it needs to do both. Its wouldn’t be useful for its intended use if it cant do both.
Basically you deny enemy armor and other infantry support into the area you are working in, which means the infantry can’t operate effectively in that area.
A quad copter with 500g of payload would be just as effective
The drone operator would be in the radar station’s LOS, even if this thing couldn’t detect a drone, which it can…
If everyone who studied this went into medicine instead of death…
The system being discussed is not explicitly or exclusively useful in military contexts. There are a LOT of places where advanced beam forming and radar capabilities could be useful outside of that. Not to mention: in military applications, this is pretty definitely a defensive system.
“But I don’t want to cure cancer. I want to turn people into dinosaurs.”
Why suddenly are these required to be taken out by anti rad munitions?
It’s radar. They’re practically setting off a beacon of their location through operation.
No I’m not disagreeing with you on the principle and have been making the exact same argument about scaling and cost in regards to the US defense doctrine for years. But there is no special munitions required to take out a small radar system, which is basically a bunch of highly sensitive electronics which must be exposed for the instrument to work. Any basic quad drone with a reasonable payload could easily take one out.
This doesn’t detract from you main point, which I entirely agree with and have been promoting for years.
I’m talking about HARM and friends because in terms of quickly executing a kill chain against a transmitting radar, antirad munitions are the gold standard. Sure, it can be done other ways. But it generally involves a lot more systems with relatively complex integration.
Yeah I mean, this speaks even further to the doctrinal difference I’m trying to highlight.
How are the Ukrainians pushing back on radar systems? Are they relying on anti-rad munitions? Well. No. We’re seeing them using long range drones, which, arguably, is far less complex, much more versatile, easier to produce, and cheaper to produce. The difference highlights the doctrine difference.
This is all really a debate about how one thinks about fighting a war and what one values along the way.
Thanks for the insightful comment!
This is absolutely a thing. I remember reading a story about this, this was years ago, but this guy worked for the air force of some nation in heavy conflict. One of the most used weapons in this war was an anti-radiation missile, it would loiter for some time until it detected an emissions target then lock on and destroy it. Whenever they needed to use radar, they would hotwire a bunch of microwave ovens to work with the door open, then plug them in with like six extension cords plugged together. The missiles would lock right onto those microwave ovens and blow them up. He was joking about how the enemy would boast they destroyed 15 aircraft that week on the ground, when his force only had 10 aircraft to begin with.
So what you are saying is one single Styropyro Macro-wave will suffice?
Hmm, considering how cheap these are to make (relatively speaking) could it make a good decoy? Basically set a bunch of these up in random places away from anything important with remote on switches and when missiles start flying power them up one at a time. They’re more expensive than the anti-missile drones (those are supposedly about $1000 a piece) but they might be more effective in their own way.
Possibly but you could just put any radio signal up for a decoy, you don’t need something this fancy. Radar is just radio waves. The fancy part is collimation of the beam and sensing of the return beam. That’s what costs money.
OK, so a basic radio antenna that emits the same kinds of signals a radar would? Why isn’t every army already doing this? Sounds so obvious. Imagine if these things could start attracting missiles that cost millions to fire.
They are doing it. There is a ton of decoy and anti-decoy research
Who says we aren’t? Electronic counter measures and electronic counter counter measures are a large part of modern warfare.
It’s a cat and mouse game.
Some kinds of signal? How about the 5ghz WiFi band that uses some of the same frequencies as radar, I thinks the the channels above 100
So, turn them into ECM?
Turn it on in peacetime anywhere near to anything interesting and you’ll get a visit from your local military police.
Probably one of the spectrum regulators will show up (the FCC in the US) not MPs.
Maybe, but I’m not in the US. The US is not the whole world.
Most of the world has spectrum regulators for that sort of thing, it isn’t only a US thing. MPs aren’t really the people who would be investigating unless you live in some authoritarian regime where the police and federal regulatory bodies are commingled.
I could be wrong but I can’t think of an example where a military regulates spectrum in any meaningful way and a quick web search turns up nothing.
Living near military installations would be the big exception. I live probably about 20 miles from a massive radar facility that can track planes from across the Atlantic ocean, and doing anything within the area to set something like that off would probably have the MPs knocking on your door long before anybody else. I think even flying drones above a certain height isn’t allowed for miles around.
Ah yeah you must be right then because a quick web search (in English I assume) didn’t turn up anything about other countries’ counter-terrorist organisations or the fact that radar is used for missile locks for anti-aircraft missiles. Good comment.
The US is not the whole world.
They never implied that the US is the whole world. They merely mentioned what I assume is the regulatory body that they’re familiar with.
If I said that the regulatory body who would be knocking on your door in France is ANFR (L’agence nationale des fréquence), would you complain about how France isn’t the whole world?
I get that we’re all sick of American-centrism, but that was a really benign comment. They have no way of knowing what your country’s regulatory agency is offhand.
And yet your other comment agrees with my point.
I think the context that you and the original commenter missed is
“near to anything interesting”
What do you think that means in the context of radar? What is radar used to measure?
Living near military installations would be the big exception
It’s like you just want to disagree with me because someone else downvoted me.
Motii claims that military surplus radars can be had for $10k to $50k,
What, really? Who is buying military surplus radars?
I bet more than one billionaire has them on their doomsday compounds. Who am I kidding, they buy the new $250k system.
Small airfields?
IDK maybe they can be repurposed into something. Industrial sized microwave?
Prices for electronics are exceedingly floaty in these ship-shinking days
I don’t always make typos but when I do I sound like Sean Connery.
The fact that Aeris-10 offers a true phased array system and ±45° elevation/azimuth adjustments are seemingly its differentiating factors. Prices for electronics are exceedingly floaty in these ship-shinking days, but a brief estimate pins the bill of materials at $5,000 for the 10N and $7,200 for the 10E.
So for $21,600 I could attempt the goal of the main characters in Twisters.
Does that price include the Pepsi cans?
Yes but not the 5¢ deposit if you are in CT-HI-IA-ME-MA-NY-OR-VT. MI 10¢. CA CRV.
Strapping you and your almost-ex-wife onto some random pipe in a barn so you can both get sucked up by an F5 tornado?
I’d say that’s worth it.
Twisters (the recent sequel starring Daisy Edgar-Jones, Glen Powell, and Anthony Ramos) has a new team trying to set up 3 phased array radars 120° from each other to catch an unprecedented surround view of a tornado. It was better than I expected.
Even for a post-mortem Crichton film and story?
Have you seen what they did to Jurassic Park? I mean, Timelines was bad enough (unless you’re desperate for Paul Walker eye candy), and that was while he was still alive. So bad that he didn’t have another movie writer’s credit until he’d been dead for 7 years.
Nice, more instructions to send to revolutionaries in Myanmar.
Definitely not coming to a battlefield near you any time soon.
A lot of paramilitary organizations are suddenly showing a lot of interest in the things on Github.
this plus automatic anti drone drone network would render long range drone obsolete
Counter measures don’t typically make a weapon platform obsolete.
What makes a weapon platform obsolete is that it’s role is no longer needed in battle.
Long-rang strikes and precision fires, are the new meta.
Expect to see a proliferation of new countermeasures, such as cheaper and more plentiful detection systems, of which radars will play a part, but they’re also easy to detect and destroy i.e. SEAD.
