On the one hand, oh noz, the incest games. Who will live without the low effort AI goon crap?
On the other hand, why do the payment companies get to dictate what sales are made? It’s my fucking money, or my fucking store. It’s not the job of the payment processors to determine if I’m buying illegal goods, just that the money goes from me to the store.
I’m in a similar boat. I actively dislike incest/fauxcest porn and porn games. I don’t find it “naughty taboo” but gross and often fetishizing straight-up abuse. I’m not sad to see such games and videos, that I can never quite filter out because they are never consistently tagged, go. I am worried that they will try pulling the same shit as Tumblr and OF.
The payments can become a legal liability for the processors. I believe there are federal laws that have penalties for anyone who facilitates transactions for certain prohibited goods or services. It’s the same reason cannabis shops have such a hard time getting payment and banking services.
The payment processors have very little incentive to take risks here. As others have noted, there isn’t much competition pressure.
EDIT: I went to find a source, and found the cannabis analogy isn’t right. Seems that Visa and MasterCard really are the primary censors of the porn industry. This archived FT article went in depth. https://archive.ph/zXKuD
It’s not even legal risk. It’s brand risk.
There’s a difference with cannabis shops because that’s actually still federally illegal. As such, the required business accounts and tax documents required to use a national payment processor are often not forthcoming. It’s a low level regulation that you can’t generally tell a federal bank you’d like an account to store the proceeds of a federal crime.
With porn, the legal standards and protections are pretty well established. As long as the company is in possession of the required tax documents and business accounts, there’s no legal risk beyond the standard due diligence they need to do for every customer. Visa isn’t generally liable if a tire shop is discovered to be breaking a non-financial law. What processors don’t want is to have their brand attached to something that they worry could make them look bad.
They are just testing their power, make you get used to it. Someday they will make pressure for some ideology. Whenever there’s a morality argument in place prepare to get fucked.
It’s been like this for a while in the porn industry. In an interview a while back, Bree Mills says she gets more limited by payment processors than the government (though that might be switching).
Ever wonder why every faux-incest video goes out of the way to say everyone is a step family? Step father, step daughter, step mother, step brother, all somehow living in the same house, over 18, and no blood relation? The first amendment protects them from the US government, so that’s not why. Credit card companies are why. The old Taboo series was distributed differently back in the day. Can’t make that anymore.
This also applies to some of the more extreme BDSM stuff, like blood play or scat. Won’t find them on kink.com.
deleted by creator
Well in germany doing porn that implies incest or csam even if the actors are not related or over 18 can still get you jail time
CSAM sure, but is incest porn really mentioned in the StGB? There’s 173 StGB, but that is for the actual act and not pretending.
Well after a bit of research it seems i was wrong with incest porn. Even the act is not punishable as long as it is not vaginal sex
I was surprised to see that you are correct. 173 StGB only mentions “Beischlaf” and that is indeed only vaginal intercourse. You learn something new every day.
Sup babe, wanna netflix and Beischlaf?
As a form of protest, we should all start scooping up incest porn games.
Found Jamie Lannister’s account.
Why shouldn’t the payment processors get a say in the payments they process? Illegal or not, why should they be forced to process payments that facilitate things against their beliefs?
Steam could pursue other payment processing possibilities instead of acquiescing to their demands.
Because they’re functionally a utility. If they want to throw their weight around they should be forced to compete with a public option
Why shouldn’t the payment processors get a say in the payments they process? Illegal or not, why should they be forced to process payments that facilitate things against their beliefs?
Because they hold an effective monopoly over the payment process.
But they don’t hold a monopoly. And at least for now, they are private businesses. If your argument is that they should be nationalized, that’s a different conversation and I think we’d agree on more.
A duopoly or any oligopoly is effectively the same as a monopoly.
Because it’s not their fucking money! If someone is selling a thing, offers to sell it to me for money, and I give them money, I get the fucking thing! The processors can fuck right off with their Victorian bullshit.
Steam could pursue other payment processing possibilities
Imagine you can’t use visa or mastercard. What other fucking payment card acceptance system are you going to use for payment processing in under 30 seconds?
Why shouldn’t the payment processors get a say in the payments they process
Because it’s none of their business what I buy. If a store is a reputable business that isn’t defrauding me, and are a legal entity, then whatever they sell to me or I buy from them should only matter to me and the seller.
Illegal or not, why should they be forced to process payments that facilitate things against their beliefs?
So half the market can get nuked once the CEO decides whatever faith du jour they have disallows whatever?
Imagine you can’t use visa or mastercard. What other fucking payment card acceptance system are you going to use for payment processing in under 30 seconds?
This is one of the few places where I think cryptocurrency could be useful. It ain’t much, but there it is.
Incorrect! Bitcoin transactions take 10 FUCKING MINUTES.
There are countless other cryptocurrencies than Bitcoin
And literally not a single one of them is useful for the purpose of quick, efficient, and secure transactions.
Blockchains are slow and inefficient by design, since they need to build consensus. On any sufficiently popular blockchain, transactions are either fast or secure, never both.
The “fix” that the crypto industry has come up with is to re-invent banks, except with even more crime and virtually no regulations. Now you’re just entrusting FTX with your coins to enjoy “immediate” transfers, how could that possibly go wrong?
getmonero.org 1 minute average confirmation time, private by default. Eth average confirmation time is 6 seconds and right now it’s doing 16 transactions per second, not counting L2s. Blockchains are way more secure than a centralized database controlled by a financial institution that can freeze or deny you the right to use your money or fat-finger your life savings away with no recourse.
Bitcoin has lightning or you could use a chain with faster blocks.
Lightning Labs launched the Lightning Network in 2018 with the goal of reducing the cost and time required for cryptocurrency transaction. Specifically, the bitcoin blockchain can only process around 7 transactions per second (compared to Visa Inc., which can process around 24,000 transactions per second). Despite initial enthusiasm for the Lightning Network, reports on social media of failed transactions, security vulnerabilities, and over-complication lead to a decline in interest.
I’m not really that familiar with LN, to be honest. It looks like there’s almost $500 million in the network available for transactions (source), and according to this report, there were about 6.6 million transactions in August of 2023.
Not MasterCard or Visa levels, for sure, but also not a 10 minute wait for a transaction to complete either.
These payment processors are businesses. They provide a service. Like valve does. It seems to me like you’re making an argument for valve, but not for these other businesses which only differ in the service they provide.
If your point is “our society is too dependant on a small selection of payment processors and we need better options,” that’s a separate discussion and one I don’t think I’d disagree with.
Well I think bottom line is that’s the rub, the burden to become a payment provider is high… which it should be, but that’s because we need pretty damn good regulations on them (as obviously if their security goes to crap, the consiquences are insanely high).
In addition it kind of is a small group by design because, we can’t have it as a large group. If we have a nice even spread across 50 payment processors, then either everyone needs 50 credit cards, or every service that needs to be paid needs contracts with 50 payment services.
Yes, Valve and Visa/MasterCard differ massively in their service. Valve operates a store within a specific industry, Visa/MasterCard process payments across our whole society.
It should be clear to anyone that payment providers must be held to a much stricter standard and have certain requirements of neutrality imposed on them. If not then in the best case you risk destroying the “free market” part of free market capitalism, worst case you’re weakening democracy by letting unelected, unaccountable people decide what is and what isn’t legal.
Well I find it a bit ironic to invoke the “free market” while simultaneously asserting they should not be free to choose who they go to market with. Isn’t the point of the “free market” that if Visa or Mastercard won’t facilitate the needs of the market, someone else will?
Payment processors should be following the most free speech laws there are, because they have de facto monopolies. If they do have a choice though, if they don’t want to support porn, then they could choose not to be a payment processor.
Ideally they should be nationalised, or perhaps internationalised.
There’s also no choice. Which payment processor and credit card do I choose so that I can buy any legal pornography I want? How do you even get a card that’s not.visa or MasterCard for.l general use? I’ve only ever had one of those
Imagine you can’t use visa or mastercard. What other fucking payment card acceptance system are you going to use for payment processing in under 30 seconds?
Amex. Discover. Diners Club. Venmo.
and will they accept me selling incredibly controversial pervert games that disgust even the most perverse?
I don’t know. Visa and MasterCard did for 20 years, so maybe. I don’t really care either way. I’m not going to judge people who play “Interactive Sex - Daddy Daughter Incest Volume 4” but I’m not going to go to bat for them either. I can think of way better hills to die on.
sure, we’re both on the same page, but pointing out non-alternative alternatives isn’t exactly a contribution to a discussion.
I feel it was a good answer to the question posed
Imagine you can’t use visa or mastercard. What other fucking payment card acceptance system are you going to use for payment processing in under 30 seconds?
Things of questionable moral value have been available for sale for as long as money has existed. It’s not like this is new. Payment processors got into this business knowing perfectly well that some purchases may not align with their moral values. In fact, they’ve been profiting off it for decades. They don’t get to suddenly clutch their pearls now.
To be clear, I won’t miss the incest games. I just don’t like the precedent this is setting.
Processors don’t even deserve the right to even learn what morals even are. They are business entities, and shouldn’t have any rights at all, honestly. They’re just there to move money and shouldn’t get any say at all in what that means. None.
Honestly, (to your last point) fuck anyone who is into that shit in any kind of practical way.(if they wanna goon about it, that’s another discussion. But even with adding “step”, it’s kinda close to that vanta black color on the sunniest day.
But if having erotic software keeps them out of their siblings and parents and kids’ beds, then more power to em.
Because they’re a financial institution, not an individual. They don’t have beliefs.
Arguing that corporate “beliefs” (image management) and interests take priority over societal order is ridiculous.
We regulate banks and financial institutions all the time. We regulate businesses all the time.
They should suck it up and treat businesses with legal activities and proper tax documents as just another business. Kinda like how we have laws that say that public shipping companies need to generally treat all customers the same. It’s why they don’t typically ask what’s in the box aside from questions related to operational characteristics. Porn doesn’t spontaneously ignite and threaten an aircraft, but lithium batteries can.
Arguing that corporate “beliefs” (image management) and interests take priority over societal order is ridiculous.
Good thing I’m not arguing that.
why should they be forced to process payments that facilitate things against their beliefs?
You’ll excuse me for thinking this means you think corporate beliefs are more important than the social benefits of neutral financial institutions.
To answer your question again without assuming anything about your opinion: they should be forced to process payments because they don’t have beliefs, it’s better for society if financial institutions only look at the business relevant portions of a business, and a legal obligation is perfectly sufficient to protect their business interests in reputation management. All the same reasons we don’t let shipping companies refuse customers for morality reasons.
What if these payment processors have decided it’s bad business for them to process payments for incest porn games?
🙄 On what grounds would doing so operationally impair the platform? Is it illegal? Does it prevent them from servicing other businesses in a timely fashion? Does it cost more money in a way that can’t be reflected in the service fee structure?
Explain to me what reason they would have for objecting that isn’t just a different way of phrasing “morality judgment” or “image management”.Do you also think that a shipping company should be able to refuse to ship products from businesses they don’t approve of, even if it’s functionally identical to something else they would ship?
What about either of those companies refusing service to someone because of their sexual orientation or gender identity?People used to say it’s bad business to service gays, blacks, Jews, Catholics, Hispanics and the Irish. At some point we decided that businesses need to shut the fuck up and just do business without judging, or else their service has no place in society.
The free market that businesses love so much exists entirely through the grace and in the service of society at large. If they fail to at least not harm society, why should society extend that courtesy to them?shipping company should be able to refuse to ship products from businesses they don’t approve of
Sure, I don’t have a problem with that. I would use another shipping company.
What about either of those companies refusing service to someone because of their sexual orientation or gender identity?
That is not remotely the same thing and a gross false equivalence.
We’re talking about platforming incest hentai games and you’re making a comparison to serving Black and queer people. I don’t think we’re going to see eye to eye on this, have a good one.
Because corporate religions are obviously more important than individual religions and beliefs. It goes against my beliefs to pay overdraft fees. Do you think that shit would hold up? They are constantly changing the rules that you have to follow and enforcing their will on everyone whether they use their service or not.
Religion is vile.
I’m genuinely confused about what point you are trying to make.
Edited to add, why doesn’t someone who understands the point better than I do try to elucidate? Instead of just downvoting me for stating that I didn’t understand. Like what does corporate religion mean? I’m so confused.
The banks have their own “ethical code” or “operating principle”’ which invariably are just carbon copies of the board of directors or owners religious disposition. So you get shit where capitalism is enforcing the morals of a deeply depraved peoples onto the entirety of the country and world.
I know incest is gross. But it doesn’t hurt anyone. And for them to come in and say “spending money on that filthy sin is ILLEGAL!!!” because they control the only methods by which that content can be accessed, is literally corporate fascism. It’s “rule by corporation” not cooperation as a democracy should be.
The very idea that ANYONE who supports a free state would support those who control the most wealth also controlling ALL OTHER WEALTH ON THE PLANET by virtue of limiting what it may be spent on, is so egregiously, heinously evil that I wish to personally skull fuck anyone who espouses it.
Because I’m not a right-libertarian who ignores how corporations setup coercive structures all their own in a perversion of free association.
In a world without regulation etc… maybe. Bottom line we’ve given payment processors power. Bottom line we need to buy things in the digital world, unless crypto can actually be stabilized or designed in a way that doesn’t require an unsustainable massive energy waste and polution to use.
There either needs to be a universal good as cash payment processor that anyone can easily use… or we need to force ones that exist to transfer payments without bias.
Steam could pursue other payment processing possibilities instead of acquiescing to their demands.
why is valve obligated to serve up this garbage? simply not being party to it is the best answer.
still nothing explaining why valve should be serving up this garbage. just downvotes. weak.
If you mean the games in question, well they aren’t obligated and they’ve clearly chosen they don’t care to bother anymore.
If you can’t buy these games on Steam anymore, where can you buy them?
JAST, Kagura, DlSite, Itch, Patreon, and GOG are some vendors. I recommend JAST and Kagura, since they are dedicated to perverse games. DlSite is good if you want to buy Japanese exclusive games, and then pirate the unofficially translated versions.
Note that from some countries (germany at least) you might need a vpn to access the 18+ parts of DLsite (on that note, both steam and gog have a few porn games delisted if you’re in germany, thanks to some “think of the children” people, but JAST sells them anyway if they have it)
Yeah that even applies to some games that aren’t porn games but just feature nudity like the Fear & Hunger series.
These at least show up when logged in but are there ones that you can’t see at all without VPN?
Piratebay.
either patreon or itch-io. But it does depend on the creator. You’ll find many Japanese games on dl-site for example.
A rare L for Steam.
Not exactly their fault, but I wonder what changed that made them start caring.
Probably the last tweet that was posted on this thread, if PayPal was denying purchases in certain regions than steam would get scared
This might sound like a good idea. But it is not, since lets say some topic is too sensitive for the payment processor, then they have monopoly on what game can and can not be allowed on Steam.
So in the long run, this is a bad idea.
This doesn’t sound like a good idea in any way. Why the fuck do banks get to say how my money is used? They can literally eat my shit.
I 100% agreed. BUt maybe some people thought it sounded like a good idea.
Eh, it sounds like a good idea that incest games are getting removed.
how does that sound like a good idea?
Why?
Because incest games shouldn’t exist.
I am in no way endorsing this, but I’m agreeing with the top comment that it only sounds like a good idea at first, but it’s actually not.
Why shouldn’t they exist?
Transcript
nickyflowers: It would be cool if websites let you be an adult on them. The advertisers and payment processors need everything to be Family Friendly though their definitions of family and friendly are fucked. But since they’re in charge of the Internet now, no one is allowed to be an adult. TikTokers say things like “unalive” and “seggs” because they know death and sex are too adult for online. Online is for idiot babies only now because they’re easier to market to.
nickyflowers: Oh I’m sorry you’re a trans adult? Super ban. You are super banned for life. You have upset Visa’s feelings. Mastercard is throwing up in the corner. How could you do this to Google Ads?
Absolutely spot on. It reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere on here a few months ago where some clown used “seggs” and someone else responded to them and said they can just say sex because there aren’t any algorithms here that would cause problems for them. The clown has a complete meltdown and ranted and raved in response about how they’ve been using “seggs” long before the internet or some wild shit like that and how dare anyone tell them that they don’t have to use it here. The really fucked up thing was that he got a bunch of up votes and the person they lost their minds on was down voted to hell. I felt like I was losing my mind reading that interaction.
First they came for the incestuous porn
Then they came for the furries
Then they came for games with violence
Then…
Then…
Then…Nah they love violence. It keeps the gravy seals as hapless betas.
The violent video games though, those are the latest satanic panic I’ve been aware of thanks to that idiot Jack Thompson
Wait a minute, PayPal is pulling puritanical bullshit again? Did they learn nothing from the last time they tried that?
deleted by creator
You know what? I’m going to buy some yaoi on steam out of spite. Spite yaoi.
They might sort of have to do this or risk being cut off, given the loss of US Net Neutrality and the new pro-business-rights administration.
We really also need payment neutrality. I don’t like the content that’s being removed, but I really don’t like that visa gets to decide that websites are allowed to show, sell, and everything else. I don’t give half a damn if someone decides to swipe their card at the heroin and machine gun store, visa shouldn’t be the one deciding that they can’t make that transaction
Fully agreed. On the service-provider side, we have ‘safe harbor’ laws: A site isn’t liable for copyrighted user-generated content as long as they have mechanisms to take down items when notified.
Liability-wise: The payment processors should have no fucking insight into what is being sold, only that they handle the transactions. Therefore, they should have no liability, similar to “safe harbor”.
Reputation-wise: I can almost see a history where Visa, for example, used a statement like “we don’t handle transactions for X” as a marketing ploy… but that is way past where we are. There’s no chance of reputational damage to a payment processor for the items for which they handled a payment. Combined with the above, if I say I’m giving $20 to Tim, you give $20 to Tim and take it from me. Done. Not your problem.
As another commenter stated, the payment processor should be a dumb pipe, and anything illegal being sold should be a liability for the seller or buyer. The idea of a moral judgement of the processor is as stupid as a water pipe to your house cutting off the flow if your shower runs too long.
The real problem is the politicians, or lobbyists/influencers, who are sending bribes to each other to gain advantage… but visa doesn’t have a problem handling a venmo transaction for ‘tuition’.
Let me buy horny games until after you block world superpower corruption first. But honestly, don’t even do that. Just handle moving the money when someone send it. That’s your only job.
Payment processors and financial institutions sure do seem to hold disproportionate amounts of power.
deleted by creator
Drawn and CSAM don’t go together
deleted by creator
Ohh look i did want to to argue either. I just think it is a bad idea to throw those two together because most people are too ignorant/emotional to make a difference and thats bad.
And a thought is not a crime imo so whatever fantasy rocks your boat idc.
I wouldn’t really care if Steam decided to crack down on porn games, its their store. Payment processors being the ones to force Valve’s hands simply doesn’t sit right.
an unelected duopoly can basically dictate global laws.
definitely dystopian
Dude SWIFT has more financial power and sway than visa and mastercard. They’re the folks who manage the network that allows bank transfers to happen nigh instantaneously. So if they block you, you are fucked.
the network that allows bank transfers to happen nigh instantaneously.
Ah, so I guess Canada doesn’t use them! Haha
Haha but also last I checked everyone but north Korea uses them and north Korea I’m just pulling out of my ass because it makes sense to me.
It’s only a matter of time before they come for furry stuff. They did it with fansly. It’s apparently “simulated bestiality” and from what I’ve heard you aren’t even allowed to reference trans puppy girls, pup play, etc without getting banned.
Wait, puppy play would get you banned? Isn’t that just, like, wearing funny ears and walking around on hands and knees or whatever? Maybe at most a tail buttplug? I don’t really get the appeal myself, but it seems pretty damn benign.
That’s different than cub stuff right?
Yes. Cub stuff can be banned for all I care.
Good. That shit is vile.
Less vile than those who shame harmless kinks
“harmless”
Consenting adults doing something in private triggers your harm alarm?
Oh let people enjoy stuff you don’t agree with
Sure. You like beastialty too?
Have you ever heard of the straw man fallacy?
If it’s fiction, who fucking cares?
Oh damn, ya got me
You don’t have to like it, I’m certainly not into it. Still failing to see how it not being for you justifies puritanical bans
It’s not puritanical when the subject hints at beastialty. If you want to fuck animals, seek help.
Does a diaper wearing fetish predispose someone to pedophilia? This reeks of slippery slope fallacy
They probably do wear diapers aswell.
Some, maybe. Regardless, if two consenting adults want to pretend to be animals or even pretend to be kids while they hump I really don’t see a problem.
That’s the fucking thing. It’s played up to the point that kids might find it and like it.
It wouldn’t be a problem if they didn’t fucking have conventions celebrating it. With kids.
Or, you know. On FUCKING STEAM.
you must be into beastility, if your projecting this much about it, .
So?
It’s a game with a representation of something that can’t even happen. It doesn’t even get to the point where you could have a discussion about simulation creating a demand for real that some things have because it’s not even remotely realistic.It’s not my cup of tea, but that just means I don’t look at it.
It’s because you think it’s icky and you don’t know how to handle those feelings, isn’t it?
Hey, no kink shaming!
What happens between two (or more) consenting adults that isn’t causing harm to others is none of your business.
Don’t like it? Don’t do it or watch it or play games themed around it.
And don’t be a sad individual who is only able to get joy from shitting on things others like. Because that life only ends in you dying miserable and alone, with nobody to mourn your passing and the last time your name is spoken being by the priest who rushes through a form-letter eulogy to get you sent off to the beyond as quick as possible.
It does extend to others since they put animated, innocent “kid-friendly” looking porn on imageboards.
And yes it’s akin to beastialty which is vile. Why else would you dress up like an animal?
- You can’t see these games without being signed in
- When you create a new account, adult games are hidden by default
- You can use the Mature Content Preferences if you don’t want to see them
- Steam Families + managed accounts is the way to go to curate stuff for kids
Let the adults be adults, and let the parents to their jobs. No need to grandstand on something so petty.
Nice of you to justify beastialty on Steam.
why shouldn’t people be allowed to make artistic choices when drawing pornography?
90000% agreeing with you, video games are for little children and should never contain any adult material!
Thank you for your contribution, it’s suitably appreciated.
Fuck off
I don’t mind these games existing, but I’m also not going to be too sad if they leave steam, ngl.
Oh shit, I saw that the original Leisure Suit Larry games are no longer for sale… wonder if this is why?
Naw. That’s a rights issue, however they are available on GOG.
Steam should accept bitcoin or some other crypto as default for all titles and only use card for “safe” titles
Steam users are mostly tech savvy enough to do it
Can I send them an unmarked envelope with enough money to buy the games I want, with only my username in the envelope?
That would be cool.
But agreed, I think steam should accept crypto.
Steam used to accept Bitcoin, they stopped when the transaction fees made it unusable. Every time I remember that I get really pissed off, had the block size been increased back then Bitcoin would still be accepted in the many places it was (Steam wasn’t the only one, lots of stores online used to accept it), but because they kept promising a magic solution that never manifested people lost hope and jumped ship (which did solved the problem as nowadays only investors use Bitcoin, so a lot less transactions, a lot more value in them, and higher fees matter less)
well now we have lightning maybe the time has come to try again.
Having already had an implementation working should hopefully help
They had Bitcoin integration for quite a while. It was removed during a system change, probably because very few people used it
i had no idea and i’ve held crypto in some form or another since 2014. Maybe it wasnt marketed well
This is actually a really good idea. The people that want these kinda games are either underage horndogs on their parents computer, or able to use crypto.
